Big Bang

aku_EnSeM

Things that are more than 16 billions light year away might still exist nowadays, and might also not.

Logically, bende tu mungkin masih lagi wujud. Cume die berade lbh dari 16 bilion tahun cahaya. It has nothing o do with their age.

Tapi, I still agree with the conclusion that u made earlier: They don't exist anymore. But i disagree with ur explanation. Diorg tak wujud due to the fact that star tak boleh hidup begitu lama....

aku_EnSeM

now... korang bincang big bang ke bincang psl nature of science??

ussopp

smalam setelah aku pikir2 balik....

camna plak diorg bleh tau jarak bintang tu sedangkan apa2 sumber dari bintang tu sepatutnya belum sampai lagi, sepatutnya???

aku_EnSeM

Originally posted by ussopp at 7-3-2007 07:33 PM
smalam setelah aku pikir2 balik....

camna plak diorg bleh tau jarak bintang tu sedangkan apa2 sumber dari bintang tu sepatutnya belum sampai lagi, sepatutnya???

hehehe.... aku xpect bende ni akan kuar....

Kiraan jarak ke satu-satu bintang ada banyak cara.....

Salah satu cara: kajian spektrum bintang...
Basically, semakin jauh bintang tu, kecerahannye (apparent magnitude) semakin kecik... N bagi bintang yang mempunyai komposisi kimia yang sama, mereka mempunyai spektrum dan kecerahan sebenar (luminosity yang sama)...

Suppose kite ade due bintang. Bintang A dekat ngan Bumi, bintang B sangat jauh dari Bumi.. Data spektrum bintang ni sama, that is, diorg akan menghasilkan garisan spektrum yg sama jika cahaya dari bintang itu dilalukan melalui prisma kaca.. So, we can deduce that they have similar chemical composition, and thus similar temperature, similar luminosity... Tapi, apparent magnitude bintang A semestinya lebih tinggi dari bintang B... (In fact, dalam astronomy, semakin cerah bintang pada mata kasar, semakin negative nilai apparent magnitude. I've to turn the other way round to make this easier to understand, ok? )

Orait, jadi jike kite tau jarak Bumi ke bintang A yg lagi dekat tu (gune teknik paralaks), kite boleh anggar jarak Bumi ke bintang B yg sangat jauh tu.... Setuju??? setuju...

Skarang, kite ade 1 care yg accurate nak anggar jarak bintang dari Bumi... Namun, isu di sini adalah cahaya tu lom sampai lagi.... Tapi, kalau cahaya tu sampai, kita sudah boleh menganggar jarak bintang tu (bintang akan bersinar dengan suhu permukaan yg malar buat satu jangka masa yang panjang). Dan kene ingat anggaran jarak dengan cara ni semata-mata akan jauh dari nilai sebenar kerana bintang tu mungkin sudah bergerak jauh dari Bumi....

                              S@         E
                       
                        S             @        E

                  S                          @       E
         
          S                                             @E
                               |----------------------|E
                                distance measured

ok, based on above illustration, memang banyak ralat.... Sikit dekat 2 kali ganda....

Tapi, ahli fizik tak akan sebodoh ini... Diorg telah jangka bende ni memang berlaku..... So, they have another approach... Melalui Doppler effect, they could determine the speed of a particular object that is moving away from the Earth... Kalau kite tau speed ni, kite akan tau di mane bintang tu sepatutnye berade skarang, based on cahaya yg kite nampak.... But still, sedikit ralat mungkin berlaku pasal cahaya yg kite nampak tu cahaya dari masa lampau.... Pasal tu astronomical data slalu berubah, ye tak???

So, kiraan jarak tu sebenarnye jauh lbeh complicated....


N untuk pengetahuan semue, ape yg aku tulis kat atas sumenye mengarut, dan aku tak pernah bace pong!!!!!! So, kalau 100% salah, tolong betulkan ek....

MACD

"If the universe is 16 billions years old, how could we see star that is located tens of billions light years from the Earth?"

Dari mana kau jumpa fakta ni. Cari kat Internet tak dapat pun...

cipanbakar

Originally posted by aku_EnSeM at 7-3-2007 01:37 PM
Things that are more than 16 billions light year away might still exist nowadays, and might also not.

Logically, bende tu mungkin masih lagi wujud. Cume die berade lbh dari 16 bilion tahun cahaya. It has nothing o do with their age.

Tapi, I still agree with the conclusion that u made earlier: They don't exist anymore. But i disagree with ur explanation. Diorg tak wujud due to the fact that star tak boleh hidup begitu lama....

mule2 nak cakap aku dah lame tak amik tau pasal universe nih. tp sket2 ingat lagi la

rasenye bukan 16 bilion tp 14.6 bilion

bintang2 yg wujud dulu memang dah tak wujud lagi skang. bintang2 dulu sangat2 besar dan sangat2 unstable. awal2 dah mampus

alam memang bermula ngan satu titik. dari mane titik tuh datang tak pasti tp memang ada titik2 lain yg memungkin wujudnye alam2 lain daripada titik2 lain itu di mana sifat yg ada di alam itu tidak same ngan di alam ini yg mana tiada satu hukum fizik di alam ini dapat di apply di alam yg lain2 itu (konon la). selepas big bang, alam semesta sangat2 panas yg mane tiada ape pun wujud termasuk cahaya sebab keadaan panas ini tak memungkinkan atom wujud. keadaan nih amik mase tak silap 400000 tahun. teori nih telah dibuktikan oleh 2 orang elektrik man yg tengah kaji product diorang tp terdetect signal yg ada di mana2. signal tuh la yg berjaya membuktikan kewujudan big bang nih. ala signal nih name ape ntah tp korang mesti penah tengok kan gambar cam glob pastuh ada bintik2 tuh

cipanbakar

Originally posted by MACD at 13-3-2007 08:33 AM
"If the universe is 16 billions years old, how could we see star that is located tens of billions light years from the Earth?"

Dari mana kau jumpa fakta ni. Cari kat Internet tak dap ...

mungkin bleh try relatekan ngan einstein lens. bukan pasal lens tuh tp ape yg lens tuh dah tolon buktikan

aku try answer la soalan tuh. actually yg diorang konpius ialah camana ada bintang yg jaraknye lebih dari 14.6 atau 16 bilion tahun cahaya. kalo ada bintang sejauh tuh, kan maknenye bintang2 bergerak menjauhi antara satu sama lain lebih laju dari cahaya. tp di awal pembentukan universe nih dulu memang partikel2 bergerak melebihi kelajuan cahaya. nak explain pun dah banyak term2nye yang aku dah lupe. dari aku membodohkan diri sendiri, baik korang paham2 sendirik jek la yek...

camana we see star located tens of bilions light years from earth? cahaya tuh tak sampai ke bumi pun. kite tengok cahaya tuh melalui einstein lens. ikut teori relativiti (general relativiti kot), graviti bleh bend cahaya. so dulu ada la saintis tuh nak buktikan einstein nih penipu besar. diorang pun buat selidik then ape yg diorang dapat adalah sangat2 menggemparkan. diorang sendiri yg buktikan einstein tuh terer. dari kajian diorang, maka wujudlah menda yang dinamakan einstein ring. dari lens einstein nih kite bleh gunakan galaksi2 sebagai kanta pembesar untuk melihat galaksi2 yang jauh lebih jauh yang tak mungkin kite dapat tengok dari bumi

harap2 aku tak mengarut..

[ Last edited by  cipanbakar at 24-3-2007 07:07 PM ]

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by cipanbakar at 24-3-2007 06:58 PM


mungkin bleh try relatekan ngan einstein lens. bukan pasal lens tuh tp ape yg lens tuh dah tolon buktikan

aku try answer la soalan tuh. actually yg diorang konpius ialah camana ada bintan ...

from what i`ve read.. you`ve made few mistakes.....
things before do not travel faster than light..... on the future con theory, the galaxy are travelling faster than they are in the
past.. which mean now, the galaxy are travelin faster than before....
and some theory say tat light is the limit and threshold of speed.. of any object can travel..........

Originally posted by cipanbakar at 24-3-2007 06:58 PM
camana we see star located tens of bilions light years from earth?

the easiest way to see tat is trigonometry..........  ancient astronomer see star distance by measure the distance with a sort of telescope... tat telescope measure the degree of star is located.... then the astronomer will wait for 6 months..... y 6 months?
cos one year is 12 months and 6 months indicate that the earth orbited the sun exactly 180 degrees and he shall measure the degree of the star again...... basically........ like a triangle......

                            star
                          /       \
                        /           \
                       /              \
                      /                \
                     /)degree       \
                  earth             earth
                    on                  on
                  june               january

then the distance shall be calculated with trigonometri.... but it is not accurate.........

nowadays, astronomers are using radiowave to measure the distance of the stars..... i am not sure tat in detail.. but
they determine the spectrum contour and the light emitted with their intensity.....

Originally posted by cipanbakar at 24-3-2007 06:58 PM
graviti bleh bend cahaya

yes.......... gravity bend light.......... BUT not all gravity force....
only in black hole..... if the light is too near the black holes` event horizon or szhwarchild radius, the light will get bended.. y
only black hole??? i magine this..... u take a pillow..... u press your finger inward the pillow... wat do you see??
a cone lookalike.. right?? tat bend inward the pillow.... tat is wat astrophysicist call gravitational well....
how steep the well is determine how great the gravity force is.... the force your finger apply is the weight of star
black hole is the result of supernova.... super nova... exploded tat cause the star to exploded with unimaginable scale....
in newton`s hird law, there must be a opposite force... it applies the same for the supernova.. the contracting force pull the
expanding and exploding supernova... in the end, the super nova collaps with its own mass.....
density=mass/volume
right??
so if the supernova is contracted to zero volume, then the density of the black hole will be INFINITY......
therefore, the black hole have enough force to bend the light....

einstein said tat black hole sucks EVERYTHING including lights.... but stephen hawking proves tat wrong.... some light can
escape black hole....

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by rurouni_khairul at 9-1-2007 05:44 PM
Ussopp, saya pernah dengar teori yang mengatakan selepas peristiwa Big Bang tuh alam semesta masih terus aktif berkembang sehingga ke hari ini, prosesnya tak pernah berhenti. Mungkinkah cahaya mampu bergerak 100 Billion tahun cahaya sedangkan alam semesta ini baru wujud 13 Billion juta tahun dahulu? Saya pun tak berapa pasti.

Saya pernah tengok citer pasal Stephen Hawking mase die jumpa teori Big Bang. Dalam citer tersebut ade saintis yang berjaya merakamkan sejenis bunyi partikel yang sedang hangus. Bunyi desiran hangus itu seperti fosil-fosil yang membuktikan teori Big Bang itu. Agak manarik jugak sebab dalam filem itu menunjukkan alam semesta nie belum 'betul-betul sejuk' selepas Big Bang tuh berlaku.

big bang have cooled down.. but the universe never stop expanding...... the cone of the future explains it......
the big bang happens followed by the three minutes..... the most active and violent three minutes..... it then cools down
and rocks, dust are pulling each other with the force of gravity...

stephen hawking.... my idol....
i know he is now trying to answer few questions....

1) wat is before big bang?
2) wat cause the big bang to happen?
3) why the cause must cause the big bang to happen?
4) wat will happen next in the end?

"Bunyi desiran hangus..... "
can you give me the name of the documentary?? thanks

[ Last edited by  wei_loon5063 at 25-3-2007 12:28 AM ]

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by MACD at 13-3-2007 08:33 AM
"If the universe is 16 billions years old, how could we see star that is located tens of billions light years from the Earth?"

Dari mana kau jumpa fakta ni. Cari kat Internet tak dap ...

yeap...... i`m wondering the age of universe......
btw... nice pic on parallel universe....

chiKenliTeL

mana ada pics?~~

cipanbakar

Originally posted by wei_loon5063 at 25-3-2007 12:12 AM

from what i`ve read.. you`ve made few mistakes.....
things before do not travel faster than light..... on the future con theory, the galaxy are travelling faster than they are in the
past.. which mean now, the galaxy are travelin faster than before....
and some theory say tat light is the limit and threshold of speed.. of any object can travel..........

during earlier time just after the big bang, there was a short time which known as inflation era. during this era, the universe expand a couple of times faster than the speed of light. ada satu picture yg korang biase tengok yg bentuk loceng tuh ada divide universe age by different era. inflation betul2 kat ujung dekat2 ngan titik yg present big bang

the easiest way to see tat is trigonometry..........  ancient astronomer see star distance by measure the distance with a sort of telescope... tat telescope measure the degree of star is located.... then the astronomer will wait for 6 months..... y 6 months?
cos one year is 12 months and 6 months indicate that the earth orbited the sun exactly 180 degrees and he shall measure the degree of the star again...... basically........ like a triangle......

                            star
                          /       \
                        /           \
                       /              \
                      /                \
                     /)degree       \
                  earth             earth
                    on                  on
                  june               january

then the distance shall be calculated with trigonometri.... but it is not accurate.........

nowadays, astronomers are using radiowave to measure the distance of the stars..... i am not sure tat in detail.. but
they determine the spectrum contour and the light emitted with their intensity.....

actually i tried to answer question raised from a forumer how to SEE star located bilions light years from earth. trigo nih untuk ukur jarak and bukannye untuk tengok galaksi yg teramat2 jauh. so my answer to him was einstein magnifying lens. thats also answer how come we can see object 20 bilion years away. the age of universe onli 13.7 bilion as sephiroth said (14.6 bilion as i said before is wrong), so that mean light from the object onli have travel 13.7 bilion years. using simple calculation that mean the light still 6.3 bilion away from earth. so how could some scientist in earth claim they have seen that object? einstein lens is the answer

cipanbakar

Originally posted by wei_loon5063 at 25-3-2007 12:27 AM



yeap...... i`m wondering the age of universe......
btw... nice pic on parallel universe....

cosmic microwave background (CMB nih la menda yg aku cakap globe bintik2 tuh ) dah konfirmkan kejadian big bang nih dan usia universe. lepas big bang, universe bergelap. nih sebab mase tuh universe terlalu panas and cause no atom can exist. yg ada mase tuh hanyalah subatomic (electron dan proton) yg berselerakan hingga menutupi seluruh universe hingga tiada cahaya yg bleh melaluinye. selepas 400k years, barulah universe cool down n atom pun boley terbentuk. mase nih barulah cahaya mampu 'melepaskan diri'. cahaya2 nih lah yg dilihat pada gambar CMB yg bintik2 tuh. cmb nih jika dilihat dari mana2 bahagian universe yg besar nih pun kelihatan sama dan punye karektor(T) yg sama. so dari situ saintis simpulkan yg sebenarnye universe nih bermule dari satu kawasan yg sama dan terbentuk pada mase yang sama. that's why cmb nih dikatakan sangat2 penting untuk membuktikan kejadian big bang

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by cipanbakar at 25-3-2007 12:39 PM

universe onli 13.7 bilion as sephiroth said

do not take comment said by tat guy seriously..... tin kosong.... kuat bunyi je

cipanbakar

Originally posted by wei_loon5063 at 25-3-2007 01:37 PM



do not take comment said by tat guy seriously..... tin kosong.... kuat bunyi je

opss after looking back previous page, it actually said by usopp and macd and not sephiroth

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by cipanbakar at 25-3-2007 01:38 PM


opss after looking back previous page, it actually said by usopp and macd and not sephiroth

ape ape la... asalkan dari mr.S ignore je............ dia tu anti semua bende

wei_loon5063

cipan............  
i`ve search my astronomy books........ distance galaxy are like distance star.. they
are emiting LIGHT.......... there are few ways to see them....
by, infrared; ultravoilet;radiowave; x-ray and gamma ray.............
there are explicit explaination which are hard for me to put here.. but u can search on net....
and the new begining...... new version of telescope...i do not know whether is it ur so called einstein lense.....

well, instead of using LIGHTS, the telescope sense cosmic rays, neutrinos and gravitational waves.....

i once read this telescope in the artics.... since artic are the place where light
pollution is the least... so it is built there.... know how it is built? they use
extremly high voltage to melt the ice then they put sensor into the water and let it freeze again.. then ten sensor collect pure data from outer space......

about the age of universe... i`ve got this book it says tat big bang happens some
13 billion years ago.....
Space encyclopedia; heater couper and nigel henbest; DK publisher

but one question in my mine.... which big bang is the big bang tat created us?
before the big bang tat created us... are there any else?? if there are, are the
previous life same like me? am i living the live that i live again in the previous big
bang?????:hmm:

very padadox huh my questions.... hahahahaaa.................. sometimes my
normal conversation are like tat n its hard for my fren to understad either...  

cipanbakar

aiyahhh a couple of time talk about einstein lens but forget to tell wat the f*ck is that

start with history first. nearly century ago, there was an englishman scientist try to test einstein teori about the general relativity. he want to disprove gravity could bend light. the method is to take pictures of the stars around the sun when the sun is there during sun eclipse time and compare it with the pictures of the same stars when the sun is not there. must choose during eclipse time becoz at other time cannot see the stars around the sun lah. if einstein was right, then the location of the star from those 2 pictures would be different. and that's wat he got. so he have prove einstein teori.

but that's not the end. without he knowing it, his discovery has been used decades later as a lens to view object very very far away. wat happen is, when the gravity distort the light, it not onli reflect it but also magnified image. and it not onli magnify the size but also the brightness. thats why intriguingly, far away object viewed from dis len are clearer than the nearer object used as lens. the onli prob is the image quite distort but a computer can adjust it. so currently the scientist use galaxies or cluster of galaxies as lens to see remote galaxies far far away. it also make us able to find exoplanet in other star system


p/s- try look at einstein ring. it is the most beautiful object should i've witness (although onli through picture )

cipanbakar

Originally posted by wei_loon5063 at 25-3-2007 02:53 PM

but one question in my mine.... which big bang is the big bang tat created us?
before the big bang tat created us... are there any else?? if there are, are the
previous life same like me? am i living the live that i live again in the previous big
bang?????:hmm:

very padadox huh my questions.... hahahahaaa.................. sometimes my
normal conversation are like tat n its hard for my fren to understad either...  

aihhh so many big bang ahh? i also don't know bout that. buku stephen hawking takde ke pasal tuh? i pun tak penah baca. but i sebenarnye lebih interested to know how it end. how it start at least i already watch and feel its consequence. so how it end would intrigue me more. would it expand, contract or another bang in the future? oh please please bring me to the future. anyone??

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by cipanbakar at 25-3-2007 04:33 PM


aihhh so many big bang ahh? i also don't know bout that. buku stephen hawking takde ke pasal tuh? i pun tak penah baca. but i sebenarnye lebih interested to know how it end. how it start at l ...

i`ve got 2 books from hawking...... brief history of time; universe in the nutshell.........  dulu saya gila dengan astrophysics...
i`ve read few thing on how it ends.....
the big bang symbolize the bang and explotion tat push everything apert.... the end??? the big crunch........
after the big bang, the galaxies are expanding and moving away from each other.... right?? then after it reach a
threshold..... like a spring.... u tie a weight and let it drop... it will drop and till a limit it will pull it back.....
the expanding force will pull everything back again and contract everything into NOTHING is left..........
ada bit bang adalah big crunch......... macam white hole...... heard of it?? black hole suck everything in.... and the black hole
is deemed to be endless.... if people could control where the black hole is heading and create a while hole(tat spit everything)
and they created worm hole tat is capable of space travel and time travel.........
from wat i read, there is this CERN is europe.. they are building mini universe to test the validity of their theory.....

many big bang......... yeap......... its the chicken and egg question......... which comes first????