Should Malays have freedom of religion?

Originally posted by nightlord at 11-8-2006 09:50 AM
2) ARE MUSLIMS SO WEAK IN THEIR FAITH THAT GIVING A MALAY THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE MEANS THEY WILL CHOOSE ANOTHER RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM.  

Your sentence above should be understood by you like this and  in this context:

"GIVING A MUSLIM THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE HIS/HER OWN RELIGION"

Why? because you know very well that Malays in Malaysia  are synonimous with Muslims although Muslims are not necessarily synonymous with Malays.

Malays are already Muslims & Muslims who choose another religion or who choose to become agnostic.. are indeed apostates.

Why didn't you be realistic and put it that way? Because your basic aim and agenda and desire albeit disguised  is to unIslamise the Malays

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 13-8-2006 05:10 PM ]

barney50

1. responded by Baiduri Othman:Well, I don't know abt that. But then even Sabah & Swak joined the Federation only in 1963, still you shd thank both states. Remember Tanah Melayu might be running out of natural resources during those yrs. So thanks to the people of Sabah & Swak. Ahaksssssss....... What if one day both states are able to get 100% of their oil royalty & they no longer contribute to the Federal Govt?
   
2. 
   
3. PS. Bosan dgn jenis manusia yg asyik perasan yg bangsa mrk je yg membangunkan Msia.

Copy the Code

If y9ou do not know than just shut up and learn your facts first before you puke. Now your oil royalty is not enjoyed by Indians or Chinese but by mainland  bumiputra Malays [not the true bumiputras who are the orang asli who knows nothing about oil royalty business].] In fact the Indians enjoy nothing except citizenship and selfearned income. Who is enjoying the best of the best in this country is the Malays and yet it is not enough for them so how could they share it with us who form only 10% of the population. That question you ahould ask the mainland bumiputra Malays and not me. I pun dah bosan dengan manusia yang asik minta bantuan Kerajaan tanpa usuha sendiri.

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-8-2006 06:53 PM
responded by Baiduri Othman:Well, I don't know abt that. But then even Sabah & Swak joined the Federation only in 1963, still you shd thank both states. Remember Tanah Melayu might be running  ...

load of bulls, barney. the roads that you travelled and the medicine that the oil money subsidised is not something that come out from your nostrils. the petrol price that is still subsidised is offsetted with the oil profit, the free education that you get is subsidesed by this oil.

please get this idea of malay putra out of your head. its too cliched and dont hold water anymore. rather rise up and change your race's destiny and dont blame others for your inadequacy.

[ Last edited by  bob at 13-8-2006 09:49 PM ]

nightlord

:malu: Your level of comprehension of article 11 is unbelievable.

Oreng i forgive you because of your grasp of english. As for KENKID, it is unforgivable.

KENKID, do you know that there are Malays in Kelantan who are Hindus?

And as i have said many times, Article 11 is NOT ABOUT APOSTASY.

IT IS ABOUT A CITIZEN'S RIGHT GIVEN BY THE CONSTITUTION - the freedom to choose and practise his/her own religion.

If Malay Muslims wish to ignore what has been conferred under the Article 11 then so be it, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.

And as for "UNISLAMISATION" suggested by KENKID. Like I said Article 11 is NOT ABOUT CONVERSIONS. And as KENKID also said, a Malay is one who professes the religion of Islam as defined by the Constitution.

So what is the big deal about Article 11 that Muslims are worried about?

nightlord

Baiduri quote

We don't force the non-Muslims to embrace Islam whenever they want to marry their Muslim partners.

Not true Baiduri. A non-muslim man cannot register a marriage with a muslim woman without converting to Islam. The reverse is allowed.

Originally posted by nightlord at 13-8-2006 10:43 PM
:malu: Your level of comprehension of article 11 is unbelievable.

Oreng i forgive you because of your grasp of english. As for KENKID, it is unforgivable.

KENKID, do you know that there are M ...

i need to correct you as i think you may have been misled.

1- there is no malay hindus community in kelantan (unless its only one or two).
2- if article 11 is not an issue, the ifc would not have made a roadshow about it.

the fear is not apostasy or mass conversion of malays to other religions. its allowing the federal constitution to preceed shariah law on islamic issues. how could justice rao judge on divorce or faraid laws? he is not even a muslim and cannot appreciate the muslim law.

nightlord

Oreng

And so malays would like to freely practice islam. Can you respect that? Or do you see that, for malays to practice islam is contravening article 11 but for others to do it, no issue. have it not crossed in your mind that maybe, just maybe that the islam religion practive by that individual malay is the religion of his choice?

or do malays need to convert to other religions in order to prove that they are adhering to article 11? you cant answer this cant you?

As i have said, your lack of prowess in the English language has somewhat left you disadvantaged, and i apologise as my Bahasa is somewhat hopeless and i might do more damage than good.

I have full respect for Malays in their choice of religion.

And Article 11 does not ask anyone to change their religion. It only states that you are FREE TO PRACTISE YOUR CHOSEN RELIGION.

What IT DOES IMPLY though is that ANYONE in Malaysia CAN ALSO FREELY CHOOSE THEIR RELIGION OF THEIR CHOICE. Including a Malay. Now this is only my interpretation of Article 11, and anyone here in this forum is free to contest that - as i have posted the Article earlier.

nightlord

Article number: 4

4.

    * (1) This Constitution is the supreme law of the Federation and any law passed after Merdeka Day which is inconsistent with this Constitution shall, to the extent of the inconsistency, be void.

Article 4 says that the Federal Constitution is the SUPREME LAW of Malaysia.

But in Malaysia, Syariah law do apply to all Muslims, but the Syariah Courts are a sub-set to the Malaysian Civil Courts.

In other words, judgement CAN GO BEYOND( my intepretation) the Syariah Courts based on this hierachy of courts.

What the IFC commotion is about honestly i have no idea, nor have any wish to know.

What i do know is that non-muslims are not worried about RELIGION, they are worried that the Constitution will be mis-intepreted and changed without their consent.

This is a VERY BIG THING with non-muslims as they believe their rights as citizens may be eroded.

[ Last edited by  nightlord at 13-8-2006 11:19 PM ]

anta

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-8-2006 06:53 PM
If y9ou do not know than just shut up and learn your facts first before you puke. Now your oil royalty is not enjoyed by Indians or Chinese but by mainland  bumiputra Malays [not the true bumiputras who are the orang asli who knows nothing about oil royalty business].] In fact the Indians enjoy nothing except citizenship and selfearned income. Who is enjoying the best of the best in this country is the Malays and yet it is not enough for them so how could they share it with us who form only 10% of the population. That question you ahould ask the mainland bumiputra Malays and not me. I pun dah bosan dengan manusia yang asik minta bantuan Kerajaan tanpa usuha sendiri

Hi Barney.

What an unthankful Indian you are!  May be you have not been living in Malaysia for all these years, except for vacations. That's why you dare to write 'In fact the Indians enjoy nothing except citizenship and selfearned income'. Read the Malaysia's 40 Richest (http://www.forbes.com/business/global/2006/0605/035.html) as one example.

You know how difficult it is for the government dominated by Malays to ensure the following people able to  run their  businesses and feel secure to do busineess in Malaysia, not to mention facilitating them to do businesses outside Malaysia.


1. Robert Kuok

$5.6 billion

83. Married. 8 children.

Got start in 1949 trading rice, sugar and wheat flour. Today heads multinational Kuok Group. His Pacific Carriers Ltd. is a leading dry-bulk shipper in the Pacific basin; his Transmile Group, which transports freight by air, has landing rights in China and India. Also owns 10 Coca-Cola (nyse: KO - news - people ) bottling plants in China.

2. Ananda Krishnan

$4.6 billion

68. Divorced. 3 children.

Former oil trader's holdings include Maxis Communications, Malaysia's largest cell phone service provider; now entering Indian cell phone market with acquisition of 74% stake in Aircel Ltd. for $1.1 billion. His Tanjong Plc.'s subsidiary, Powertek Berhad, paid $300 million for three Egyptian subsidiaries of energy giant EDF in March. Also controls racetrack betting and lottery systems in Malaysia.

3. Teh Hong Piow

$2.1 billion

76. Married. 4 children.

Former bank clerk used profits from real estate deal to open small bank 1966. Today Public Bank second-largest lender in Malaysia, with 12,800 employees and 251 branches. Public Bank's Islamic banking products and services gaining popularity among Malaysia's Muslims. Loves photography; avid reader.

4. Lee Shin Cheng

$2.05 billion

67. Married. 6 children.

Started out as field supervisor in plantation industry. Now heads IOI, with interests in palm oil, property development and hotels. Set up largest palm oil refinery in Europe, which recently started production. Company's stock up 70% in past year, driven by hype surrounding biofuel (gasoline or diesel mixed with palm oil to cut oil costs and pollution).

5. Quek Leng Chan

$2 billion

65. Married. 3 children.

Heads Hong Leong Group Malaysia, a conglomerate of 14 listed companies traded on various stock exchanges. Includes Asian financial services giant Guoco Group. His Hong Leong Bank has bid an estimated $460 million to buy Hong Kong's Asia Commercial Bank (other-otc: CBDP.PK - news - people ); one of two finalists. His Hong Leong Group is also in talks to sell its OYL Industries Bhd., which makes air conditioners.

6. Lim Goh Tong

$1.5 billion

88. Married. 6 children.

Former public works contractor turned his idea for hilltop resort on outskirts of Malaysia's capital city, Kuala Lumpur, into one of world's most successful casino resorts; his First World Hotel now has 5,675 rooms. Retired in late 2003, handed reins to son Lim Kok Thay (ranked number 10). Wrote autobiography titled My Story.

7. Yeoh Tiong Lay

$1.1 billion

76. Married. 7 children.

Patriarch (otcbb: PRRH.OB - news - people ) of Yeoh family heads YTL Corp., one of Malaysia's largest conglomerates, with interests in construction, utilities, hotels, property development and technology. Son Francis YTL's managing director. Company hopes to benefit from $54 billion development plan recently unveiled by the government. Related Starhill REIT listed in December.

8. Tiong Hiew King

$1.05 billion

70. Married. 3 children.

His Rimbunan Hijau Group got its start in 1975 as a timber contractor. Operations now span Malaysia, New Zealand and Africa. Maintains that his logging operations benefit local communities. In recent years his publishing house, Ming Pao Enterprises, has introduced local editions of Chinese-language daily Ming Pao in cities like San Francisco, New York, Vancouver and Toronto.

.....
.....

15. Anthony Fernandes

$205 million

42. Married.

Spent 14 years as music industry executive, lastly running all of Warner Music's operations in Southeast Asia before quitting to launch what is now Asia's biggest discount airline, AirAsia. With slogan "Now everyone can fly," AirAsia went public 2004; sports $1 billion market cap. To save money, half of all bookings made through the Internet. Also developed service to book tickets by mobile phone and SMS. Starting to offer cheap car rentals and a referral service to hostels.

16. Vinod Sekhar

$200 million

37. Married. 2 children.

Founder and majority owner of privately held Petra Group. Among its many technologies, one of the most promising is involved in "green rubber," a revolutionary process to cheaply and efficiently recycle used rubber. Dad former head of country's government rubber agency. Company's board members include Christopher Forbes, vice chairman of Forbes. Sekhar lover of Cuban cigars; has collection of more than 100 Mickey Mouse ties. Spends about third of time on charitable activities.

17. G. Gnanalingam

$170 million

62. Married. 3 children.

Chairs Westports, the largest privately owned port in Malaysia, which he started 1994. It is also said to be the most profitable of the country's ports. Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka-shing's Hutchison Whampoa (other-otc: HUWHY.PK - news - people ) bought a 30% stake in 2000. Reportedly used prize money won in crossword puzzle contest to pay for college. Former tobacco industry executive still heavy smoker.

......
......

http://www.forbes.com/business/global/2006/0605/035.html

[ Last edited by  anta at 13-8-2006 11:39 PM ]

Baiduri Othman

Originally posted by tiM at 13-8-2006 04:24 PM
Sabahan dan sarawakian sekadar berkorban hasil minyak (hasil bumi milik Tuhan) tapi chinese dan indian dari keringat mereka, hasil pengorbanan (penghambaan mereka pada duit).

Jgn cakap ikut suka hati. Org2 di Sabah & Swak tak pernah pun minta apa2 dr korang w/p keringat korang. It's org2 Sabah & Swak who develop their states. Kalau nak harapkan keringat korang habuk tak ada!!! Jgn nak bercakap besar. Kuching diiktiraf sbg one of the cleanest cities in the world pun tak harapkan keringat korang. Swak yg terpaksa bagi 95% of its oil royalty masih mampu usahakan cara lain utk generate income & langsung tak mengharapkan keringat korang. So jgn nak bragging kat sini. Tanpa Sabah & Swak, YOU GUYS ARE NOTHING!!!

Baiduri Othman

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-8-2006 06:53 PM
responded by Baiduri Othman:Well, I don't know abt that. But then even Sabah & Swak joined the Federation only in 1963, still you shd thank both states. Remember Tanah Melayu might be running  ...

Sayapun dah bosan dgn satu bangsa yg asyik mengatakan kerajaan tak adil dgn mrk & asyik mengeluh. Apasal tak cakap kat Samy Vellu?

barney50

1. responded by Baiduri Othman:Sayapun dah bosan dgn satu bangsa yg asyik mengatakan kerajaan tak adil dgn mrk & asyik mengeluh. Apasal tak cakap kat Samy Vellu?

Copy the Code

Samy Vello? Siapa dia Samy Vello, Perdana Menteri Malaysia? Hello, Hello! suara Samu Vello hany boleh di dengar hal2 berkenaan kementerian Kerja Raya. Hal2 rakyat hanya Perdana Menteri boleh mengurus. Tapi Perdana Menteri jaga kepentingan Melayu aja. Yang bersuara telah pun dapat suspension tiga bulan, kini dia pun tak berani kerana telah di nasihat supaya jangan soal apa tentang kaum India. Apa lagi? . So, TST lah.............

to profess means to confess, or to allegiance

nightlord

As i have said before, YOU GUYS SHOULD TAKE SOME ENGLISH LESSONS.

The words profess, confess and allegiance have all totally different meanings.

Try a dictionary, if dont know how to use tanya your old english teacher.

Baiduri Othman

Originally posted by barney50 at 14-8-2006 11:07 AM
responded by Baiduri Othman:Sayapun dah bosan dgn satu bangsa yg asyik mengatakan kerajaan tak adil dgn mrk & asyik mengeluh. Apasal tak cakap kat Samy Vellu?


Samy Vello? Siapa dia Samy  ...

Kan Samy Vellu tu kebal.

Originally posted by nightlord at 14-8-2006 11:52 PM
As i have said before, YOU GUYS SHOULD TAKE SOME ENGLISH LESSONS.

The words profess, confess and allegiance have all totally different meanings.

Try a dictionary, if dont know how to use tany ...

alloo.. dont think your england is very good aahh..we understand what the article says and we also understand what it implies. and we are all the while okay with its existence. its your attempt in trying to make article 11 superior than shariah law within muslim community that irks muslims. the way you post and your comments about english show'd you trying to be whiter than lord reid himself.