Daging landak....... (dan berkenaan lain-lain haiwan)

ibnur

atok grave,

benda yang dikatakan ulat laut tu definasi manusia atau tafsir al-quran?

ni nak ikut tafsiran al-quran hukum "apa-apa yang di laut" atau nak ikut tafsir manusia yg ni kotor atau yang tu kotor?

apasal pulak ikan yang makan bahan buangan tu boleh jadi tak kotor dan halal?

antiQue

mnm, the reason why I pointed out the soid-ul bahri part tu bukan sebab nak deduce whether segala benda dalam laut tu boleh makan ke tak, but rather to point out that some of us are too obsessed in trying to classify whether an animal is  considered "soid-ul bahri". Isn't it amazing to see somebody trying to deduce whether crocodile can be eaten or not based on whether it is a soid-ul bahri?     

I don't know whether you speak arabic, but if you do, you will notice that soid-ul bahri tidak pernah bermakna binatang buruan, but rather referring to the action of pemburuan binatang laut. Grammatically, it is an isim masdar. Don't believe me? Either you go to your own pasted translation where you include "pursuit of" earlier, or go a little bit further towards the end of the ayah. IF you want to define soid-ul bahri as binatang buruan laut, maka terpaksalah you define soid-ul barri as binatang buruan darat, maka terpaksalah orang berihram makan seafood manjang sebab binatang darat dah haram kaedahnya jika itu yg you nak define it as.

See my point? Why so busy trying to classify what animal is soid-ul bahri when it is not what soid-ul bahri is there for? See where am I heading to?

IMO, wouldn't it be better if we discuss about the arguments of the imams on the two carrion hadiths, the "ta'amuhu" phrase from the verse and that sort. Isn't it more beneficial to extend the discussion about the hadith you quoted above with another hadith of the two permissible carrions, etc etc?

Oh btw... you do agree to the fact that there are still exceptions even in mazahibs other than Hanafi, isn't it?

Just my seposen...

mnm77

I agree with you, the text I refer to 'binatang buruan' actually means the action 'buruan' of that kind of animal.

However, I missed (or did'nt get) the point you try to point out, because of the same reason.

Language is however seems misleading, yet it is good that you choose to clarify (especially to me)

I only hope to get good reason why Crocodile has been classified so... maybe somebody can point out where is the actual reference?

To be more clear, why  the action of hunting Crocodile (of course to eat) has been classified as permissible, based on the referred Soid-ul bahr? Do you have any opinion or any reference?

Originally posted by antiQue at 22-4-2008 10:40 PM
Oh btw... you do agree to the fact that there are still exceptions even in mazahibs other than Hanafi, isn't it?

Agree

[ Last edited by  mnm77 at 22-4-2008 11:20 PM ]

antiQue

I chose to be fussy enough to bring the point about soid-ul bahri tu sebab I can see that many in here thought that "soid-ul bahri" means "apa-apa binatang yg ada dalam laut", thus taking it as a licence to say that whatever in the sea is indeed halal. They didn't notice that soid-ul bahri tu bukan bermakna binatang laut, tapi action of hunting, thus the fallacy in their analogy. Kebenaran memburu di laut dan menjadikan ianya makanan (ta'amuhu) tidak bermakna setiap apa yang ada dalam laut itu boleh diburu dan dimakan.

Sebab tu every mazhab ada exceptions, sedikit sebanyak.

[ Last edited by  antiQue at 23-4-2008 09:34 AM ]

mnm77

Originally posted by antiQue at 22-4-2008 10:40 PM
See my point? Why so busy trying to classify what animal is soid-ulbahri when it is not what soid-ul bahri is there for? See where am Iheading to?

IMO, wouldn't it be better if we discuss about the arguments of theimams on the two carrion hadiths, the "ta'amuhu" phrase from the verseand that sort. Isn't it more beneficial to extend the discussion aboutthe hadith you quoted above with another hadith of the two permissiblecarrions, etc etc?

Although I have been here quite some time, I still don't know what is IMO. Anybody care to tell me? (Sorry macam soalan bodoh pulak!)


Actually, I do not like to go deeper but just to my thought.....

antiQue,
I agree as you explained that many have made wrong analogy regarding soid-ul bahri, but I still see there are reasons why people do the classification.

I meant to say the extraction of ruling from the verse require classification of animals, although grammatically the verse mentions about action of hunting.

Al-Maaidah, 96: Lawful to you is (the pursuit of)    water璯ame and its use for food - for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel, but    forbidden is (the pursuit of) land璯ame as long as you are in a state of Ihr鈓 (for    Hajj or 'Umrah). And fear All鈎 to Whom you shall be gathered back.

I try my best not to use my own understanding as my understanding could be wrong, I preferred the views of the Ulama/Mufassireen to be safe. If someone can furnish me with the views of the learned ones, I would be really happy.

Now if we consider the action, and avoid classification of the sea animals, then....
The pursuit of watergame is clearly permisible, BUT, now question arise, which is animals are allowed for hunting in the sea?

Kalau tak dibuat klasifikasi, tentunya orang akan ambil ayat tersebut untuk menghalalkan segala pemburuan binatang hidupan laut, betul tak? Sebab tu perbezaan pendapat mazhab muncul kerana perbezaan tentang klasifikasi binatang yang boleh diburu di laut (kalau saya salah tolong betulkan)

antiQue

I think you got me upside down kot.. but never mind.

As I said above, the reason why I was being fussy to raise the soid-ul bahri thingy is JUST because I saw many thought the "soid-ul bahri" bermakna "binatang-binatang dalam laut". Tu lah pasal ada yg buat analogy, asal benda tu dalam laut, halal lah dia. So ada yg tend to behave, nak tau halal ke tak, tentukan dulu dia dok kat laut ke tak.  Itu je yg saya nak betulkan sebenarnya dik (I didn't have any intention to touch on what was concluded in At-Tabari and al-Bayhaqi though, and what hanafi said to contradict what was in both).