The Koran and the Jews

Thanks wicked.

Hi Agul.  Thanks.  I will try to differentiate.  Just that the "bold" feature has it's own mind, does not want to take instructions...hehe

I thought that they may have been punished twice although we do not know, based on the Quran if being exile twice were those punishments

So, you do not know but you insists. That's where the problem lies. It seems to me we're about to come to a conclusion. And your interpretation is that though you're not sure but you insists they be exiled until doomsday. Previously you said they had fulfilled the 2 punishments. Now you're saying not sure.

Quran also states that they will become great tyrants in which I explained that apart from Joshua taking Canaan by force and David抯 expansionism of his kingdom, the Jews had always been conquered not the conqueror

Rosie, taking this account to justify that they be continued exiled is flawed. Because both the events occurred BEFORE the punishments? That the 2 punishments happened AFTER Solomon's death. It therefore had been fulfilled.

according to the OT, it抯 a different thing

So, our discussion is now moving towards the Bible? If you do subscribe to Old Testament, Hosea had predicted the fall of Jewish kingdom and the signs of their return. All the curses are meant to be warned. All the disobedience had occurred. All the said punishment had been fulfilled. The signs of returning is clearly visible. All the criteria did not took place thousands of years ago but began to surface now. All the verses points toward the regathering - the return of sons of Israel. Messianic Jewish movement in the last 2 decades also indicated they are beginning to accept Jesus.

That is another topic on its own which is not related to this discussion about Koran's testament.

Quran only mentioned two punishments. There isn抰 any third one

If you're not sure whether the 2nd punishment had been laid out, how can you be so sure this isn't the 3rd one? How strange!

The Quran says that God will gather ALL children of Israel in the promise land (when the End is coming)

If the ALL the children of Israel are prevented from returning, how can God gather them IN the Promised Land? You mean Muslims are preventing the End of Days? :stp: If they are not, they why insists they be kept out while at the same time wasn't sure it is in the process of fulfillment?

are all the people in Israel encompasses ALL children of Israel?  No, because there are still Jews all over the world

Same as the above. If they are prevented from returning, how can you be sure it isn't in the process of fulfilling?

If I had missed your point, it was by your design, intentionally or otherwise

Rosie...why do I have to intentionally make you miss my point when I have clearly said "God would gather the Jews again IN the promised land but how do you explain their exile in foreign lands until doomsday?". It is very clear I asks IN the Promised Land. I didn't asks "why not gather them in foreign land instead of the promised land". In foreign land is what you said of me. Ahahahaha..... get a hold Rosie. It's ok if you misunderstood.

Read "Beirut to Jerusalem" by Dr. Swee Chai

Thanks for the recommendation. However, statistic do not lie. I have Israeli friends. Both Arabs and Jews. It indicates otherwise. Yes there are cases Jews are leaving too. However, the process of returning may took several decades. Perhaps its not their time yet. LOLOL!

If it was NEVER implemented, the country Israel should not have existed and is committing a crime, against international law by self proclaiming "independence"

Ok. Here we move to political talk? ;) UN & British simply wash their hands off the matter and scrap the idea of partitioning ... officially, so as not to provoke its Arab members. IF they indeed wouldn't want a Jewish state as already shown in the Partition Plan of their intention, they might as well don't leave & place Arabs over the Jews. Which is more logical?

What follows is that the Jews have to face impending Arab invasions less than 24 hrs.

in someone else's country

Palestine was never a country in mankind's history. It never was belonged to the Arabs either. It was owned by the Romans. Egyptian Mamluks. Turkish Ottomans. After the fall of Israel and Judah, that region was never an independent state anymore until 1948. Even so, Palestine was still not an official 23rd Arab state. Arabs have no say in the region.

I shall continue with your Genesis talk. Gtg... to be continued.... LOL!

WRT Genesis testament, Rosie, your post had answered your question.

1) God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

2) But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year.

3) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Note that 1 & 2 emphasized God's covenant with Isaac. In point 3, God says about establishing his covenant with Abraham & his seed and make Canaan their everlasting possession. For the sake of this debate, I would point out that, Canaan was indeed made for them and Moses later reinvigorates God's intention which was WRITTEN for the descendants of Isaac.

For my own personal view however, I believe both Jews & Arabs should share the region.

Wicked... because.... let's sing the song by Freddy Mercury/Queen:

I want to break free, I want to break ...free. :music:

sonny~~

Originally posted by WICKED at 2004-6-25 03:42 PM:
Ok rosie. Let's replace the word 'banish' with 'exile'. Why do you say "the Children of Israel are meant to be in exiles until doomsday" while they had

Adm please think wisely, Rosie  ...

Why do Muslims want to keep the jews away from their land after the fulfilment of the 2 punishment, it is  because the muslims  are the believer of the quran,  the reason the muslims keep them away from their land is to slow down the progress of the end of the days.

me beg to differ.  for islam, it may be matter of muslims wanna delay doomsday by stoppin jews rapin PALESTINE.  but when one views from wider perspective, theres many signs of doomsday n the day may come tomorrow or centuries from now.  

one of the signs of course is the wmd warfare led by usa n europe, the destruction of mankind (ww1, ww2, possibly ww3) led by europe/usa , terrorism resultin from israeli PALESTINIAN conflict coz by britain/eruope/usa.  thats besides natural n manmade disasters eg famine, civil war, free sex, gay bishops etc.  

as it is the rape of PALESTINE by jews is one indication of doomsday.  how come?  simple.  the conflict couldnt be stopped by noone much less the muslims 'cept by usa by endin its billions worth of arms to jews/israelis/zionists.  usa will never terminate its donation to israel.  right?  there u r.  noway muslims gonna delay doomsday by tellin jews not to rape PALESTINE

btw read wot seeger has to say.  he may be pagan for all i care but his piece is logical  

peace

H e l m u t   S e e g e r
The End of Time Report or The Signs of Time in the Light of the Biblical Apocalypse. (Report No. 9   26.6.2000)

(delete)
The reason why all previous historical Daniel interpretations were only patchwork and missed the point right from the beginning, is above all due to the fact, that according to God's orders the biblical prophecy was 玞losed and sealed until the final time

So, you do not know but you insists. That's where the problem lies. It seems to me we're about to come to a conclusion. And your interpretation is that though you're not sure but you insists they be exiled until doomsday. Previously you said they had fulfilled the 2 punishments. Now you're saying not sure.

I see your point, 搖ntil doomsday

Rosie, taking this account to justify that they be continued exiled is flawed. Because both the events occurred BEFORE the punishments? That the 2 punishments happened AFTER Solomon's death. It therefore had been fulfilled.

See above explanation.  Again, I said: their relationship with the outside world, APART from Joshua and David, they have always been conquered NOT the conqueror.  Before Solomon, the Ark of Covenant was not in a temple but a tent.  David brought the AoC to Jerusalem but was not allowed to build a temple, God said Solomon will build the temple and the AoC was to be housed there.  

Solomon抯 temple was destroyed by the Babylonians, then rebuilt (based on OT, see Zechariah and Ezra) then to be destroyed again by the Romans.

So, our discussion is now moving towards the Bible? If you do subscribe to Old Testament, Hosea had predicted the fall of Jewish kingdom and the signs of their return. All the curses are meant to be warned. All the disobedience had occurred. All the said punishment had been fulfilled. The signs of returning is clearly visible. All the criteria did not took place thousands of years ago but began to surface now. All the verses points toward the regathering - the return of sons of Israel. Messianic Jewish movement in the last 2 decades also indicated they are beginning to accept Jesus.

If you subscribe to the OT, you will know that Hosea抯 main theme was idol worshipping,  Yahweh抯 wrath (sins and punishments) and returning to His Ways.  

But OK, let抯 assume Hosea really predicted Israel抯 return based on the following:-

Hosea 3:4-5 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol.  Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.
Israel will be without king or prince then return (to Yahweh抯 way) and David their king.  Of course, the Christians use Hosea in predicting the coming of Jesus to save the Israelites. Secondly,  Menachem Begin, Golda Meir, Ariel Sharon, Ehud Barak, Nethanyahu etc were and are not the descendants of David nor were they 卐r卆ppointed by Yahweh (see below verse and refer to Samuel and Kings with regards to Yahweh appointed Kings).

Hosea 8:4  They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.  

Hosea 13:10-11 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

Then further Hosea said in 14:1-3 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.  Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.  Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.

Israel was created as a result of war (搘e will not ride on horses

If you're not sure whether the 2nd punishment had been laid out, how can you be so sure this isn't the 3rd one? How strange!  If the ALL the children of Israel are prevented from returning, how can God gather them IN the Promised Land? You mean Muslims are preventing the End of Days?  If they are not, they why insists they be kept out while at the same time wasn't sure it is in the process of fulfillment?  Same as the above. If they are prevented from returning, how can you be sure it isn't in the process of fulfilling?

I抦 not sure whether I should respond to this in the spirit of discussion.  I however, must insist that you are ignoramus, a pretext or otherwise.

Rosie...why do I have to intentionally make you miss my point when I have clearly said "God would gather the Jews again IN the promised land but how do you explain their exile in foreign lands until doomsday?". It is very clear I asks IN the Promised Land. I didn't asks "why not gather them in foreign land instead of the promised land". In foreign land is what you said of me. Ahahahaha..... get a hold Rosie. It's ok if you misunderstood.

No, I specifically cut and pasted your from you own post and like I said earlier, if I misunderstood the question, it was by your design, intentionally or otherwise.  Why dont you scroll back and see it for yourself.

Thanks for the recommendation. However, statistic do not lie. I have Israeli friends. Both Arabs and Jews. It indicates otherwise. Yes there are cases Jews are leaving too. However, the process of returning may took several decades. Perhaps its not their time yet. LOLOL!

Ahh, why do I find it hard to believe when you say you have Semitic friends.  Are you playing semantic games with me again?  Did you just met them last night because you must have conveniently forgotten about them when you made your last statement eh?  

Population statistics on Palestine pre WWI approx. 500,000, out of this figure, only 47,000 are Jews.

http://www.palestine-un.org/chron/frindex.html

1895: The total population of Palestine is approximately 500,000. Of this population, around 47,000 are Jews, some of which are part of the indigenous population and the remainder of which represents small groups which had immigrated to Palestine for purely religious reasons.

Palestine was never a country in mankind's history.

Now you抮e exaggerating.

It never was belonged to the Arabs either. It was owned by the Romans.

Have you forgotten, the Romans were defeated by the Muslims who continued to rule Jerusalem, apart from the crusade hiccups, for more than a 1000 yrs?

Egyptian Mamluks.

So what was the hassle that you made when the Egyptians declared war when the Jews took the land?

Turkish Ottomans.

Would you make a fuss if the Turks wants Palestinian back?

Note that 1 & 2 emphasized God's covenant with Isaac. In point 3, God says about establishing his covenant with Abraham & his seed and make Canaan their everlasting possession. For the sake of this debate, I would point out that, Canaan was indeed made for them and Moses later reinvigorates God's intention which was WRITTEN for the descendants of Isaac.
For my own personal view however, I believe both Jews & Arabs should share the region.

Yes but you see, if God抯 covenant with Isaac was the promised land, it would not be accurate simply because a)  That was God抯 covenant with Abraham that the land will belong to his descendants, b) before Isaac was borne, Abraham already had Ishmael who was 13 years older than Isaac.  

God said to Abraham in Genesis:-

Gen. 12:6-7:  Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.  The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD , who had appeared to him.

Note:  Abraham has yet to have any children,the promise was made.

Gen. 13:14

For my own personal view however, I believe both Jews & Arabs should share the region.

This I absolutely agree with you my friend, let's shake hands on it.  
:hatdown::setuju:

Debmey

For my own personal view however, I believe both Jews & Arabs should share the region.

the real problem is, muslims don't believe Israel shld be shared with Jews.

samerosie,

I had mentioned in previous post that we're about to come to a conclusion. It had arrived rather fast. You have made lengthy posts. Frantically trying to dismiss & discredit the notion that the Koran supported Jewish rights of the land and their returning.

On June 23, you uttered "the Children of Israel are meant to be in exiles until doomsday" to show your disagreement that the Koran refers only to the exiles but leaves it open for their return. To strengthen your assertion, you mentioned they would be punished twice. After that, God will gather/assemble them IN the promised land at the signs of End of Days commence.

However, as I pointed out, and subsequent posts revealed contradictions that belied your opinion:
1) To justify the 2 punishments, you said "There has been 2 disapora, firstly being the conquest of Jerusalem by the Assyrians and secondly by the Romans". As we know, Jerusalem was NEVER conquered by the Assyrians. Next, if Roman expulsion were to be the 2nd punishment, it would refer to the 2nd exile. It did not support the idea Jews should remain exiled because God would be unable to gather them IN the promised land if they are NOT IN the promised land. Therefore, the Koran leaves it open for their return is justified. Thus, this justification is BOTH crippled & contraditory.

2) More contradiction follows. Just a day passed, June 24, you gave another confusing statement. You said " The second diaspora happened when Nebuchanezzar conquered Jerusalem...". Prior to this, you assert that the 2nd punishment was fulfilled by the Romans then pointed out by me it contradicts with your idea that Jews should remain exiled until doomsday because modern day Arabs would have transgressed the prophesy keeping Jews in exile from the promised land for the 3rd time! Perhaps it explains your vacillates that Babylonians is now the 2nd punishment not the Romans to support your later notion that God would take back whenever Jews sinned. Nonetheless, this suggestion is utterly flawed because it can't explain the dispersion by the Romans which would reduced Koran's prophesy credibility & holiness. Romans gave the 3rd punishment & exile. Modern day Arab punishment & exile being the 4th! Even so, it only refers to the 2 punishments & exiles, it still did not say in the Koran, Jews cannot return and should remain exiled because God would be unable to gather them IN the promised land if they are NOT IN the promised land.

3) June 28, you had finally concluded the 2nd punishment had passed by the Romans alluding that no temple has been rebuilt since. Again, it only refers to the exiles.

At this juncture, your premise is based on Temple being destroyed twice meant twice being punished. However, you offered an alternative consideration that Jews had always been conquered as justification that God had punished them more than twice not instead of warnings. Unfortunately, this does not result in Diaspora are more apt to prophesy of punishments - twice being driven out. Thus, this assumption is flawed to suggest Jews are under punishment again to be remained exiled rather than Arabs intransigence, greed & bigotry. Moreover, the said examples (Joshua & David conquest) had been fulfilled.

I抦 not sure whether I should respond to this in the spirit of discussion.  I however, must insist that you are ignoramus, a pretext or otherwise

LOL!! I should be the one come to the conclusion you're the one who is ignorant because you're not sure but you insist. Because if you're not sure whether the 2nd punishment had been laid out, how can you be so sure this isn't the 3rd one? If the ALL the children of Israel are prevented from returning, how can God gather them IN the Promised Land if they're NOT IN the promisd land courtesy of Arab hostilities? Can I say Arabs are preventing End of Days? LOL! If they are not, then why insists they be kept out while at the same time wasn't sure it is in the process of fulfillment? The fact is YOU DON'T KNOW. But you insists anyway based on your own perception. How can you be sure their return isn't God's arrangement? For God's sake look at Israel. It had formed! Again for God's sake see who loses in each wars. Back to the question, how can you be sure when you're not sure? LOL!

That's Koran's testament. Jews are the rightful owners. They ARE returning.

As for the Genesis, you're wasting time because God made His covenant specifically to Abraham through Isaac. In fact, your posts already provided you with the answers. Even before Isaac was born God already mentioned his name SPECIFICALLY. End story. Ishmael has his own nations NOT the promised land. Lastly, Genesis talk is useless in this topic because...we're talking about Koran testament to Jewish rights. Genesis is not wat is being discussed. More add-ons serves no purpose in this thread. Each story has its own topic.

Debmey

samerosie's behavior is simply shameful for the muslim cause. I mean what the hell? Who is he tryin to fool? himself? His fellow Muslims?
Like I said, Muslims subjected allah to themselves rather than the other way around. they always do that. I can't believe allah is real, neither do muslims.

Originally posted by Debmey at 29-6-2004 08:44 AM:
samerosie's behavior is simply shameful for the muslim cause. I mean what the hell? Who is he tryin to fool? himself? His fellow Muslims?
Like I said, Muslims subjected allah to themselves rather ...

I doubt samerosie is a muslim. I think she is a christian but not sure what type of christian she belongs , what kind of doctrine. I guess she belongs to KOS, an orthodox christian. samerosie please clarify your religion. really appreciate it if you tell us which religion u belong to.

Debmey

Samerosie is a muslim.
one way or another, it is obvious that muslims do disregard what the Quran says and made allah subject to themselves.

you cannot simply accuse samerosie as muslim just because you see her writing is in favour of muslim. she has shown the facts based on the bible and the quran.  I know it is very hard for you to accept it if she is a christian. we better wait for her to make clarification on her religion.