Is Quran the word of GOD

MENJ

Ah, the Hindu is still making noises, I see. Its not that he can prove that his Bhagavad Gita is of divine origin.

- MENJ
www.menj.org

barney50

1. responded by Iman_6:Those who tried failed, the target audience was the Arab world, the non-speaking Arab wouldn抰 know any difference, so your claims regarding Persians and Jews converts are nonsense, this is during the early stage of Muhammad s.a.w prophethood.

Copy the Code

Just a question for you. Do you mean to say there were no Jews or Persian traders in Mecca during the life of Mohammed? Can you show proof of your claim?

You are trying to make believe something you on your own without any backing. It was clearly stated in the anals of Mohammed that there were Jews, Christians and Persian traders during the life of Mohammed and here you are creating a new history to hoodwink non Muslims. It shows your limited knowledge of the history of ancient Arabia.

As I have said GOD does not need to test nor challenge HIS work. If you believe so than such verses are not from GOD but something else.   OIt is just like a father challenging some one to produce an son like his because comon sense will tell you no one can do that coz the gene would not be the same. So knowing this very well why would GOD want to challenge a mortal.

1. When Prophet Muhammad s.a.w pinned up a copy of Surah Al-Kausar on the Kaaba, and issued this very poetry competition, the best poets of the Arabs came to take up the challenge.

Copy the Code

So, now you are telling me that Mohammed challenged the Arab poets. Looks like you are contradicting your own statement. You posted a verse suppose to be from the Quran and as we are made to understand the all verses in the Quran are from Allah so how come now you say Mohammed called for the challenge? Do not make a fool of yourself and your religion.

Remember that this is your quote from the Quran The 2:23 is so simple. Get helpers of your faith to aid in writing up a alternative chapter of any Soora of your choosing and then get witnesses from your faith  to the completion of your work to ... nut now you tell me Mohammed called for the challenge. It makes one wonder if you are fluent in what you understand about your religion.

barney50

[code]responded by MENJ:Ah, the Hindu is still making noises, I see. Its not that he can prove that his Bhagavad Gita is of divine origin.[code]

I need not have to proof because GOD did not call for such challenge as Muslims claim Allah called for challenge. Can you comprehend that or your brain is lacking of comprenhension. I do not go by the name of Hindu because that is not my name but my religion is but may be you would like to be called a Mohammeden as Islam was founded by Mohammed.

God do not need humans to defend HIM. HE delivered the sacred guide for humans to utilise it for their own benefit. If a human rejects this sacret guide, they were still given a life time opportunity to find an alternative route which they choose. Eventually, wherever the human hides or searches, HE still shows HIS mercy and love to HIS creations by letting them survive every moment during this period.
HE always exists even the if the humans thought that they managed to ignore HIM,as even a human ability to think is due to BLESSING from ALLAH.
ALLAH always bless you Barney50.

Just a question for you. Do you mean to say there were no Jews or Persian traders in Mecca during the life of Mohammed? Can you show proof of your claim?  by Barney

Hold on there mister. You seem not to digest and relate to what I had posted above.

1.  Did you see clearly in what language the holy Quran was revealed?
Its in Arabic, not Persian, not Hebrew.

2.  Who should understand the Arabic language better? Just a simple example will do.
I do not understand Tamil language at all, but you do. Can that turn me into a great poet or orator in Tamil?

3. Do you know where are the concentration points of the traders during pagan Mecca and where are their boundary limits and what form of business transaction are they conducting?

4. Did you know what are Arab men favourite past times during that era, and they are well-known for their prowess in poetry?

5. Did you really learn Arab history from genuine sources as you claimed, or as usual chedok from anti-muslim sites. Your arguments are always without failed  based on this familiar sources.


Below is a historical account of Kaaba during pagan Arab time when they were still idol worshippers.

The revelers were certain of protection since the idols had conferred upon the Ka'bah a halo of sanctity and peace. The protection, however, was mutual, for it was the obligation of the Makkans never to allow a scripturist, i.e., Christian or Jew, to enter Makkah except in the capacity of a servant and under the binding covenant that he would not speak in Makkah either of his religion or of his scripture. Consequently, there were neither Jewish nor Christian communities in Makkah, as was the case in Yathrib and Najran. The Ka'bah was then the holy of holies of paganism and securely protected against any attack against its authorities or sanctity. Thus Makkah was as independent as the Arab tribes were, ever unyielding in its protection of that independence which the Makkans regarded as worthier than life. No tribe ever thought of rallying with another or more tribes in order to form a union with superior strength to Makkah, and none ever entertained any idea of conquering her. The tribes remained separated, leading a pastoral nomadic existence but enjoying to the full the independence, freedom, pride, and chivalry, as well as the individualism which the life of the desert implied.

The Residences of Makkah

The houses of the Makkans surrounded the Ka'bah and stood at a distance from it proportionate to the social position, descendance, and prestige these inhabitants enjoyed. The Qurayshis were the closest to the Ka'bah and the most related to it on account of the offices of sidanah and siqayah'  which they held. On this account no honorific title was withheld from them, and it was for the sake of these titles that wars were fought, pacts concluded, and treaties covenanted. The texts of all Makkan treaties and pacts were kept in the Ka'bah so that the gods who undoubtedly, were taken as witnesses thereto, might punish those covenanters who violated their promises. Beyond these stood the houses of the less important tribes, and further still stood the houses of the slaves, servants and those without honor. The Jews and Christians were allowed to live only in these far away houses on the edge of the desert. Whatever religious stories they could tell regarding Christianity or Judaism would be too far removed from the ears of the lords and nobles of Quraysh and Makkah. This distance permitted the latter to stop their ears as well as their conscience against all serious concern. Whatever they heard of Judaism or Christianity they obtained from a monastery or a hermitage recluse in the desert which lay on some road of the caravans.

I already made it very clear and simple to understand in my earlier posts . No need for me to repeat many times to those who just cant comprehend a simple explanation.



I wont be able to entertain you for the next few days mister, so gather as much info from reliable sources as you can regarding the Arab history.

barney50

Iman_6,
1. Of course the Quran was revealed in Arabic to the Arabs. Comon sense will tell us that if it was revealed in any other langauage other than Arabic the people of the desert would gone bonkers. Anyway Mohammed was an Arab and so spoke in Arabic to his people so there is nothing strange about that. Do you?

2. Arabic is a langguage and it is not the impossibe language for man to learn and understand it. It is not an alien language but one of the languages of the world spoken by the desert people. Language is not an impossible task for man to master. Same with Arabic as any student interested in Arabic can leran and master the language.

3.The Kaa'ba at Mecca was a very ancient Arab shrine - a bethel. It was in fact called Bait Allah, God's house, before Mohammed's day, even as Mohammed's father bore the name of Abd-Allah. And this shrine, although it contained idols and had pagan worship, was the center of pilgrimage for distant tribes. It had its guardians; it was covered with a curtain or robe, kiswah, like the Tabernacle in the wilderness long before Mohammed's time. The Dutch scholar, R. Dozy, discovered a Hebrew inscription in the interior of the Kaa'ba and wrote a thesis on "the Jews at Mecca from the days of the Captivity" (Leyden 1864) (cf. Hughes' Dictionary of Islam articles on Kaa'ba and Kiswah).

The above answers your question.

The Quran a part, poetry has always been considered the highest expression of literary art among the Arabs. Long before the coming of Islam, Bedouin poets had perfected the forms of panegyric, satire, and elegy. Their poetry obeys strict conventions, both in form and content, which indicates that it must have had a long period of development before it was finally committed to writing by scholars.

The principal form used by the desert poets was the qasidah or ode, a poem of variable length rhyming in the last syllable of each line. The qasidah begins with a description of the abandoned encampment of the poet's beloved and goes on to an account of his anguish at her absence and his consuming love for her. The poet then describes an arduous journey across the desert and ends the qasidah with an appeal to the generosity of his host. Although the subject matter is almost invariable, the language is very complex and of great precision.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/Ref5.htm

The above will answer your 4th question.

As for your 5th question please read the following article.

Concerning the origin, the most widespread myth is that Arabs are Ishmaelites, what in the case of all the Arabized peoples is not true at all, and regarding Arabians is only partially true.
The original Arab culture has been lost and the most reliable information we have about it comes from external sources, because Islamic revisionism has produced a legendary account in replacement of the scientific truth, and so one of the most fascinating cultures of the past is now missing.
The Arabian myths have been created in order to legitimate the "pre-existence" of Islam by ascribing fanciful tales allegedly happened in Arabia to Hebrew Patriarchs and Prophets. Through these legends turned into "history", Arabs claim an Avrahamic origin through Yishmael, who was only the forefather of some tribes that intermarried with many other peoples that were already settled in Arabia much earlier than him and within which the Ishmaelite lineage was largely assimilated.

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Arabs.htm

ayyohpeen

Salam to All........

Well I just let this reply pending for a few days as a healing period.  Barney50, I'm the one among mukmin peoples who bilief in UniGod or ALLAH only.  Eventhough Massagers are a part of our Faith but thier duty are only to deliver ALLAH's massage(i.e: Al-Quraan for Muhammad PBUH and All human till Kiamat).  And I'm not instructed by ALLAH(regarding Al-Quraan)to bilieved other books that created by human and claimed it is from ALLAH including 'Human Hadith' that manipulate Muhammad's task as The ALLAH's Massager

And I'm very clear on what ALLAH instructed(revelation) inside Al-Quran. Bilief only to ALLAH and Al-Quran as a sole revelation that guaranteed by ALLAH.  Other books have no guaranteed by ALLAH and surely had many discripancies and contradictions

2:2  This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

3:78 There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

62:5 The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah: and Allah guides not people who do wrong.

I bilief in UniGOD and  UniBOOK as I'm Faith to ALLAH and aslo Faith to ALLAH's Revelation ONLY which was apocalypse to MUHAMMAD PBUH and final mankind. Or in another word, Al-Quran is the only ALLAH's Hadith that I should Faith of.

Peace.........

barney50

ayyohpeen,

You are ature Muslim and I respect you for that. Peace be with you too.

ayyohpeen

Peace to all.................

Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

Zaidina

Originally posted by <i>annlyn</i> at 5-1-2007 01:25 AM<br />
Assallamulaikum !<br />
<br />
No, Quran Is NOT the word of God. Quran is in fact the words n works of the Dajjal !!! Better don't read it. If you do, u will become the followers of Satan. So, if you got a ...

<br />


the real Dajjal has finally emerged himself...beware everyone.....Dooms Day is just around the block.....:puke:


:lebai:

Robotech

Historical accuracy you said? Yeh! Your Allah seem to have some problem even in tell in how many days the universe was created but gave accurate historical facts. So, you believe the Pharaoh confessed his faith in Allah ...uh!? And I believe Mohammed confessed his faith to the devil. So now Allah is running a wax museum I suppose. He should be better than Madam Tussaud.

Pharaoh Ramses II, clearly identified by both Christian & Islamic scholars as the Pharaoh of Moses era, as explained in Holy Quran, was drowned after professing his belief in vain after being swallowed by the raging sea, only to be rejected by God who promise that Ramses II shall be preserved so much so that every humankind will looked upon his body & remember his folly in going against God. Now, the cold, mummified body of Ramses II lay in a museum in Egypt for all to see.

BTW, I don't believe Muhammad confessed to the devil, as for you sir, definitely.

What do you call this the 8th wonder of the world? Can't Muslims rememebr that there was no book when Mohammed spoke of these words? Don't Musims rememebr that these words were written in bones and skins and only after his death that attempts were made to collect all these and was binded into one book? Funny you guys have great imaginations. Go read how you Quran was collected from bits and pieces. It is not like a golded book was sent down from haven and I suppose your Allah could not do that? Funny stories these desert people were. It was a past time story for desert people under the moon light my friend.

How many versions of Bibles & Gospels do we have?

Surely, Al-Quran under mashaf Uthmani (the oldest written Quran) as written down by Caliph Uthman ibn Affan, a close colleague of prophet Muhammad, as collected from many written verses of Quran from the collection in storage in Medina, meticulously gone through authentication process & finally binded together.

The mashaf Uthmani, as current version of Quran follows, has gone unchanged without the need to revise the original form, with addition given to the vocalization mark for non-Arab reader, is unaltered since its inception.

Unlike the Bibles, which gone through many versions, countless revisions, which culminated not in one singular Bible since the era of Jesus.

Now, the Bible do not exactly dropped outta the heavens, did it? Someone written 'em down, or should I say, a coupla people written 'em in Aramaic, later adopted to Latin Roman .... & so on & so forth today.

Robotech

So, what greatness do you have in a book that did not exist during the time of Mohammed but came about after his death and what makes you sure those were the actual words recited by Mohammed? Many suhc words could have gone through transformation and changes to accomadate the interest of the Arabs like calling Muslims to perform Haj only in Mecca. Boy! You Musims azre really guillabel. I feel sorry for you  my friend.

Even the Bible are compiled after Jesus 'crucification', a process that took a bloody long time until Roman Empire finally take the Christianity mantle.

The compilation of Quran as a manuscript only takes 19 years after Muhammad's death.

You're saying?

Oh BTW, I do feel sorry to you given that you worship STONE IDOLS, in forms of many figures.

barney50

Robotect,

Do you kknow why i do not believe Muslims? Beause they are not consistent n their knowledge on Islam. Each individual give a different version such as what you said the Quran was compiled 19 years after the death of the prophet. Now let us see what other Ullamas say about it.

1. The Glorious Qur'an was compiled as a book during the lifetime of Rasulollah (S) in his instructions, who in turn was instructed by the Almighty.  When the holy Qur'an was compiled, its correctness was confirmed by Rasulollah (S).  The Qur'an we have today is that compiled during the lifetime of Rasulollah (S) and approved of by him (S).  Ayatollah al-Udhma Imam Muhammad Shirazi has written a book concerning the subject matter of the compilation of the Holy Qur'an.  It is called "The Qur'an: When Was It Compiled?" and its English translation is available online in the Books section of our website The Teachings of Islam.

[source:http://www.shirazi.org.uk/the%20holy%20quran.htm]

2. The Quran was revealed piecemeal, according to the needs of the time. Angel Jibrail [PBUH] brought it to the Prophet [PBUH] who would memorize it. Afterwards, it was preserved in two ways.

First, through memorization, there were a number of early Muslims who would memorize each revelation as soon as it was revealed and thus had the whole Quran memorized at the time of the final revelation. The tradition of memorizing the entire Quran still continues, and a person who does so is called a Hafize Quran.

Second, the Quran was preserved through writing. Whenever any revelation took place, it was written at once on tablets, palm branches, shorn of leaves, or animal skin. This was done primarily by Zaid bin Thabit, who was the main scribe out of the 42 scribes of the revelation. The Prophet [PBUH] set the order of the chapters under the guidance of Angel Jibrail [PBUH] and ordered his companions to maintain that order. Abu Bakr, the first caliph of Islam, compiled the Quran, and Uthman, the third caliph, made numerous copies and sent one copy to each state capital.

[source:http://www.islam101.com/dawah/WhatIsQuran.html]

3.The Quran Compiled by Imam Ali (AS)

There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shia, concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, Ali (AS), possessed a special transcript of the text of Quran which he had collected himself, and he was THE FIRST who compiled Quran. There are a great number of traditions from Sunni and Shia which states that after the death of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF), Imam Ali sat down in his house and said that he had sworn an oath that he would not put on his outdoor clothes or leave his house until he collects together the Quran.

[source:Sunni references:
- Fat'hul Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v10,
p386
- al-fihrist, by (Ibn) an-Nadim, p30
- al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p165
- al-Masahif, by Ibn Abi Dawud, p10
- Hilyatul awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p67
- al-Sahibi, by Ibn Faris, p79
- 'Umdatul Qari, by al-Ayni, v20, p16
- Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v15, pp 112-113
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 9, Section 4, p197
- Ma'rifat al-Qurra' al-kibar, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p31

4. During the life of the Prophet (sws) (570-632 AD)

     

i212

erm.. barney50...
Quran Compiled as One Book after death of Prophet Muhammad.
Before it, its memorize and individually written on something by all the Scholars during the revelation

Caliph. Abu Bakar gathered all the verse.
Caliph Uthman make it in One Book.

So.. what is not clear? It easy if you want to understand.

barney50

1. responded by i212:Quran Compiled as One Book after death of Prophet Muhammad. Before it, its memorize and individually written on something by all the Scholars during the revelation

Copy the Code

May be you are not aware about what has been claimed by various Muslim scholars. Read the first paragaraph. What does it say? It says clearly says the Quran was compiled as a book during the time of Mohammed now you are telling me no it was compiled after the death of Mohammed. Can you see the contradiction here? May be you pretend that contradiction does not exist but it is there in black and white but you are trying to put butter and honey and make it taste sweet. Looks like Tthis is how Islam has been painted to look like so that no one would suspect anything irregular. Pathetic!

Robotech

No clear picture on who or when the Quran was compiled. The fourth source says after the death of Mohammed that is 632 AD. So which is authentic?

We can find the answers in Islamic Studies textbooks available for secondary students (SPM & STPM), even Islamic Studies syllabus in local IPTA.

It is very simple, straight to the point:

1. Prophet Muhammad received revelation through Angel Gabriel (Jibrail), memorised the revelations & his companions memorised the Quran, while at the same time others written it down tablets, palm branches, shorn of leaves, or animal skin.

2. Following Muhammad's death, Caliph Abu Bakr compiled all verses of the Quran in written form.

3. Caliph Uthman ibn Affan finally compiled it into one single version known today as single standard for Quran - Mashaf Uthmani. Indeed, the oldest known Quran still preserved today comes from Caliph Uthman era. Other Quran during that era followed strictly to Caliph Uthman's Quran compilation.

4. Following successive Islamic Caliphates, vowel syllables  were added to facilitate easy learning & reading of Quran as more non-Arab Muslims joined the ummah.

5. Until today, Mashaf Uthmani remained the only authentic standard to ALL Quran.

Robotech

It says clearly says the Quran was compiled as a book during the time of Mohammed now you are telling me no it was compiled after the death of Mohammed.

Quran in Muhammad's era still considered holy revelation of God's word. The compilation of written Quran verses started during his time, & later Caliph Abu Bakr started the work of storing & compiling ALL written verses accordingly. The meticulous work continues to Caliph Umar era, & by the time of Caliph Uthman, the 1st known written Quran in one Book is completed, & several others are direct copies of the Book. Caliph Ali make his copy from previous Caliph Uthman's works.

How hard is that?

i212

Barney have dificulty to understand facts, I guess

Barney

You claimed many but just couldn抰 grasp a simple explanation in this thread of yours.
Why don抰 we bring this to Fuzzman thread which specifically discuss on this one claim.

http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthr ... &extra=page%3D2

I shall c&p our earlier posts and just continue from there.
Other forumners are welcome to post in this thread.

hiburanmalam

iman_6
they are simply not up to fuzzman's par.