[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

Debmey

That means you are saying that Aisha lied and Bukhari was wrong lah.

POINT NO. 9:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the period of Ignorance i.e the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) was born in the period of the jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in the year  1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-3-24 03:23 PM:
That means you are saying that Aisha lied and Bukhari was wrong lah.

No, I'm saying you're an idiot.

POINT NO. 10:

According to Ibn Hisham * , the historian, Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her)  accepted  Islam quite some time before Syedina Omar ibn Khattab (May Allah be pleased with him) accepted Islam.

http://www.msalb.org/islam/companions/omar.htm

This shows that Aisha accepted Islam during the first year of Islam.  If  the narrative that Aisha's  marriage at nine  years of age is held to be true, Aisha  would  not even have been born yet during the first year of Islam.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hisham

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 24-3-2005 at 06:06 PM ]

POINT No. 11:

Tabari* had also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him)  planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before the Hijrah), he went to see Mut`am - with whose son Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her)  had been  betroathed (engaged) to at that time - and asked him to take Aisha   in his house as his son's wife.

Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam.

Subsequently, he broke his son's engagement to  Aisha. Now, if Aisha was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born yet at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. And  If she had married at 9 years old as reported she would have been only 1 year old at that time.  

On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Aisha  not only had not been born yet or only 1 year of age 8 years before the hijrah, but  she would also have been  a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

*  http://www.renaissance.com.pk/myletfor95.html

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 24-3-2005 at 05:55 PM ]

POINT NO. 12:

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal * , after the demise (death)  of Syedina Muhammad Rasulullah's first wife Siti Khadijah (May Allah be pleased with her), when Khaulah  came to see Syedina  Muhammad Rasulullah  advising him to marry again, the holy Rasulullah  (peace be upon him) had  asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)".


When Syedina Muhammad Rasulullah  asked about who the bikr  was, Khaulah proposed Aisha's name.

Now, all those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word  "bikr"  in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr"  on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

And as most know it, our beloved Rasulullah did not choose Aisha as his wife after Siti Khadijah. Sawda bt Zam'a (May Allah be pleased with her)became his 2nd wife.  Her first husband was Al Sakran Ibn Omro Ibn Abed Shamz. He died within a few days after his return from Ethiopia. She was 65 years old, poor, and had no one to care for her. This was why Rasulullah (peace be upon him) married her.

http://anwary-islam.com/women/prophets-wives.htm

Siti Aisha became his wife  much later (not in chronological order in the above link)   because although she was young, she was mature enough to understand the responsibility of marriage. Can anyone say that at 9 years old a girl would understand the responsibilities of marriage? Most unlikely. This shows that Aisha was not 9 years old. The link below says that Aisha was 19 years of age.

http://www.xpatpakistan.itgo.com/ipwives.htm

* http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9004131

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 24-3-2005 at 06:00 PM ]

POINT No. 13:

According to Ibn Hajar*, Syedina Muhammad Rasulullah's daughter  Fatimah (May Allah be pleased with her) was five years older than Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her). Fatimah was  reported to have been born when Syedina Rasulullah  was 35 years old. If this information is taken to be correct, Aisha  could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of the hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

* http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/seerah/0074.htm

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 24-3-2005 at 06:09 PM ]

Debmey

That means you are saying that Aisha and Al Bukhari was wrong lah.

Fuzzman

Very good submission from my brother Kennkid who happens to be Allah's favorite son in this forum. Permit me to add on another link that hopefully will shed some light on the actual age of Aishah when she was married off to Prophet Mohammad.

The link in question : http://www.iiie.net/Articles/AyeshasAge.html
Ayesha's Age

What Was The Age of Ummul Mo'mineen Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) When She Married To Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)?

Some people believe that Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (peace be upon him) was consummated.

The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective standpoint. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

    * Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
    * It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
    * Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
    * Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
    * According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
    * According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
    * According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
    * Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
    * According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
    * Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
    * According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
    * According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

Neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Looks like Fuzzy cut and pasted what Kennkid just did.

4 witnessess yu say? Well lets see now, I have hadiths from Bukhari, Dawd, Muslims, as well as Tabari. All making testimony to Mo having sex with a 9 year old Aisha.



FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH BUKHARI



            I have used Bukhari's Hadith, translated into English by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, at the Islamic University in Medina.  Bukhari's Hadith is considered authentic by the majority of Sunni Islamic scholars.  It is second to the Quran in terms of importance. The central figure to approve and sign the translation is Dr. Amin Al-Masri, Ph.D. Cambridge University.  He is the Advisor and Head of the Sharia Dept., at the College of Sharia and Islamic Studies in Mecca.





From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

            "Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.  Hisham said:  "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 7, #88:

            "Narrated Urwa:  "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:

            "Narrated Aisha:  The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six.  We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj.  Then I got ill and my hair fell down.  Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends.  She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me.  She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.  I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it.  Then she took me into the house.  There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck."  Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).  Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."









FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309



            Aisha reported:  Allah抯 Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine

Fuzzman

All you need to do is very simple. Just show proof that Prophet Mohammad was a CONFIRMED paedophile? Why quote from Bukhari and witnesses like him when they only narrate what they see during that era? There were no harsh words whatsoever? Too bad Deboob for you, FaithHeckler and DivineDonkeytail just lost your deposits bigtime! You stooges can't prove zilch over the paedophilie accusation. What else? Next you will wanna make up a story about the prophet being a unbelievable masturbator?

C'MON SHOW US THE PROOFS? LOUD AND CLEAR IS DA WAY TO GO BRO?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

You want proofs? There you go. Lots of em.


FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH BUKHARI



            I have used Bukhari's Hadith, translated into English by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, at the Islamic University in Medina.  Bukhari's Hadith is considered authentic by the majority of Sunni Islamic scholars.  It is second to the Quran in terms of importance. The central figure to approve and sign the translation is Dr. Amin Al-Masri, Ph.D. Cambridge University.  He is the Advisor and Head of the Sharia Dept., at the College of Sharia and Islamic Studies in Mecca.





From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

            "Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.  Hisham said:  "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 7, #88:

            "Narrated Urwa:  "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:

            "Narrated Aisha:  The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six.  We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj.  Then I got ill and my hair fell down.  Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends.  She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me.  She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.  I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it.  Then she took me into the house.  There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck."  Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).  Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."









FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309



            Aisha reported:  Allah抯 Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine

Fuzzman

Hahahaha proves that you're definately bankrupt for proof! Cheers my Los Lobos Fren.
ARI FUZZMAN

wira_melayu

Quote:
Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-23 02:10 AM:
ESPECIALLY TO FH3

Good post to start a new discussion,i'm prepare to take on you if you hone ...  




Come one dude.. how can you debate anything when you can't even understand the meaning of the word PEDOPHILE.

An adult who was sexually aroused and had sexual contact with childrens or even a single child is known as a pedoplhile.

The requirement for the term pedophile to be used is quite straight forward.
The victim must be a child, preferably a pre-adolescent child.
The child can be male or female.
The pedophile must be an adult.
The pedophile can be a male or a female.
The relationship between the pedophile and the child can be anything. The word pedophile applies to the adult, regardless of their relationship, they can be strangers or friends or family members like husband-wife, brother-sister or father-daughter.


Thanks for the reply but have you really read my earlier post?
Your defination of pedophile is no logic to the cultural of yesteryears.Are denying the facts that the girls from those era married upon reaching puberty?

Have you ask your parents or grandparents on when they started to get married?I myself believe that most people today started to has a family on their own in their late 20's that goes beyond the of the age when our parents or grandparents started to get married.Are you denying this facts as well?:no:

Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children.  Can anyone logically deny this?
An interesting article on the age at which people married in Biblical times is Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs, by Jim West, ThD梐 Baptist minister.  This article states that:

"The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line;"
This is just one reference to the fact that the onset of puberty was considered the age at which young people could marry.   That people in Biblical times married at an early age is widely endorsed.  While discussing the meaning of the word 'almah, which is the Hebrew word for "young woman" or "adolescent female", Gerald Segal says:

"It should be noted, however, that in biblical times females married at an early age".3
In spite of its somewhat arrogant Western talk of "primitive cultures",  An Overview of the World's Religions makes it clear that puberty is an age old symbol of adulthood:

"Almost all primitive cultures pay attention to puberty and marriage rituals, although there is a general tendency to pay more attention to the puberty rites of males than of females.  Because puberty and marriage symbolize the fact that children are acquiring adult roles, most primitive cultures consider the rituals surrounding these events very important.  Puberty rituals are often accompanied with ceremonial circumcision or some other operation on the male genitals.  Female circumcision is less common, although it occurs in several cultures.  Female puberty rites are more often related to the commencement of the menstrual cycle in young girls."
Some female authors agree:
"uberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture." (Rites of Passage:  Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)
"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood  (From the Women's Resource Center)


As the debate continues,you still haven't provide me the proof that prophet is a pedophile.Your post denying the facts that it's a cultural norms for girls during those era to get married upon reaching puberty has reflects on your foolishness and ignorant
.:ketuk:

Have a nice day and Happy Easter day.:solute:

aenemy7

Now here's a real phaedo case...

http://www.geocities.com/acc_europe/page_1.html


THIS MAN IS A PHAEDOPHILE   
   




Name: JAN JENSEN
Nationality: Danish (05/26/1966)
Profession: Account Manager at Doubleclick Deutschland. www.doubleclick.net, [email protected],
ICQ: 47956685
(work) address in GermanyOUBLECLICK GMBH DEUTSCHLAND, MEBBERG 1, 20095 HAMBURG, DE.
(phone: 40 853570)
(family) address in Denmark: PEERLONKKE 51, V. SOTTEUP 6400 SONDERBOURG, DK. (phone:45 7446687)  
   
  In 1998, this man brutally forced and raped a minor in Denmark. The consequences of this sexual abuse produced vaginal tears and internal bleeding on a 6 years old girl, the child still needs psychological help. This man was not charged, neither accused for his actions. (The minor's parents, illegal immigrants, were conscious of any possible reprimand from the emigration authorities against them)

It is belived this was not the first, not the last time, Jan Jensen sexually abused a minor. Jan Jensen, now lives a comfortable free life, in Hamburg, (Germany) where he is in daily contact with other minors . If you think this man has or could had sexual abused other child, please report it including the above information.
If you find it appropriate, forward this message to parents living in the Hamburg area, you might be preventing sexual abuses on a minor.





try to differ between a marriage and phaedophile case!!! the hadith u post here is a concrete proof that it was a marriage....if it's about a lust, Aisya already being raped before the marriage!! now that's a phaedophile and clearly an illegal thing in any religion!!! so Debmey u proof nothing
yet......


:bgrin: :bgrin: :bgrin:


Allah Knows Best,Peace Yall.....

Fuzzman

This thread is living proof in that nobody can show evidence that points to Prophet Mohammad being a paedophile. The truth prevails as always.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

I don't see how that is so.

How can having sex with a 9 year old not be paedophilia?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-4-7 09:31 PM:
I don't see how that is so. How can having sex with a 9 year old not be paedophilia?

You have fought a neverending losing battle here right on to page 29. That sure is a long ways from page 1 ain't it?

First of all how sure are you of the age of Aishah. I want you to give me the day of her birth, the date of her betrothal, the date of her marriage. All in the Arabic calender please and nothing else? Remember that Aishah was engaged to someone else prior to the recommendation made by a woman for the prophet to go ahead with engaging Aishah.

Secondly you must without and beyond any doubt proof to Fuzzman that marriage at the onset of puberty is not the norm of Arabic social culture and a paedophilic crime punishable by a Arabic court in the time of the prophet.

If you can do these two simple tasks, then Fuzzman readily guess you do after all deserve some form of serious attention. Otherwise just keep the empty chatter to the likes of your goodself, with DivinePonytail included.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 8-4-2005 at 01:44 AM ]

Debmey

Are you suggesting that hadith al bukhari was wrong?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-4-8 02:02 AM:
Are you suggesting that hadith al bukhari was wrong?

I'm suggesting that you go beyond Bukhari by providing us sources or links for the two simple tasks I gave you if you wanna make the paedophile tag stick to the prophet.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 8-4-2005 at 02:27 AM ]