[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

FaithHealer3

The common understanding is that any person who is an adult commits sexual relationship with a child is known as a pedophile.

A 53year old man who had sex with a 9year old girl, clearly is qualified as a pedophile.

Very very simple to understand.

wira_melayu

Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 8-4-2005 02:56 AM:


The common understanding is that any person who is an adult commits sexual relationship with a child is known as a pedophile.

A 53year old man who had sex with a 9year old gi ...

Why don't you go back to my post and answer?
We still can debate about it but sadly you choose to run away!:cak:

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-4-8 03:22 AM:


Why don't you go back to my post and answer?
We still can debate about it but sadly you choose to run away
!:cak:

I am terribly sorry.. i didn't realise you asked me questions.

Okay.. here it goes..

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Your defination of pedophile is no logic to the cultural of
yesteryears.

The defination is valid even if it happens 2thousand years ago.

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Are (you?) denying the facts that the girls from those era married upon reaching puberty?

Yes. News is that some ancient people marry even before reaching puberty. Aisha is one of them.

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Have you ask your parents or grandparents on when they started to get
married? I myself believe that most people today started to has a family on their own in their late 20's that goes beyond the of the age when our parents or grandparents started to get married.Are you denying this facts as well?

I am not denying that people used to marry at a young age. Nor the fact that people today are marrying quite late.

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?

Onset of puberty is not a good sign to go boinking the young girls. The first sign of menstruation is not a sign for marriage. Puberty have stages. We are not living dark ages where people don't have enough knowledge.
Here is some info about puberty from http://www.puberty101.com

Five Stages of Puberty - Girls       
1Age Range: Usually 8-11
In Stage 1 there are no outside signs of development, but a girl's ovaries are enlarging and hormone production is beginning.       

2Age Range: Usually 8-14. Average: 11-12
The first sign is typically the beginning of breast growth, including "breast buds." A girl may also grow considerable height and weight. The first signs of pubic hair start out fine and straight, rather than curly.
       
3Age Range: Usually 9-15. Average: 12-13
Breast growth continues, and pubic hair coarsens and becomes darker, but there still isn't a lot of it. Your body is still growing, and your vagina is enlarging and may begin to produce a clear or whitish discharge, which is a normal self-cleansing process. Some girls get their first menstrual periods late in this stage.       

4Age Range: Usually 10-16. Average: 13-14
Pubic hair growth takes on the triangular shape of adulthood, but doesn't quite cover the entire area. Underarm hair is likely to appear in this stage, as is menarche. Ovulation (release of egg cells) begins in some girls, but typically not in a regular monthly routine until Stage 5.
       
5Age Range: Usually 12-19. Average: 15
This is the final stage of development, when a girl is physically an adult. Breast and pubic hair growth are complete, and your full height is usually attained by this point. Menstrual periods are well established, and ovulation occurs monthly.

Now! WiraMelayu, answer me this.. what is your evidence to prove that Aisha was already had her menstrual periods BEFORE p.Muhammad had sex with her? Provide some reference to sahih hadith.
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Fuzzman

FaithHeckler wrote: The common understanding is that any person who is an adult commits sexual relationship with a child is known as a pedophile.

Fine with me.Please predate this common understanding.

FaithHeckler wrote: A 53year old man who had sex with a 9year old girl, clearly is qualified as a pedophile.

9 years old you say? Then provide the Arabic calender calculation of her true age, as Bukhari has been extensively used as the only source of age confirmation. So what are you gonna base your calculations on? Forget Julian or the latter Gregorian? Just Arabian would do.

However [there's always a catch somewhere all the time!] you MUST show the common median timedate between the Arabic and the Christian calendar to corelate the exact matching date calculation deferrentials. I must tell you Dionysius did not establish an accurate date for the birth of Christ, and this had lead Christian scholars to generally believe that Christ was born some years before A.D. 1, as the historical evidence is too sketchy to allow a definitive dating. So with this deformity looming evidently, how can you truly trust the accuracy of the Christian calendar, in the quest for a common median timeline?

FaithHeckler wrote: Very very simple to understand.

Would be if you could apply that view by answering both my responses.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 8-4-2005 at 10:19 PM ]

wira_melayu

Thanks for the reply FH3,eventhough it's quite long to really wait for your reply but i guess it's worth waiting as a gesture of an adult constuctive debate:solute:

Your reply will be in blue.

  Quote:
Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Your defination of pedophile is no logic to the cultural of
yesteryears.

The defination is valid even if it happens 2thousand years ago.

Since the cultural norms during those years are widely pratices but the defination are not valid especially when their marriage are valid.It is unlike Gays or Lesbianism,they are not valid through all the years even before that,It's been widely known that lesbianism and gays were condemned during those periods and before.
  Quote:
Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Are (you?) denying the facts that the girls from those era married upon reaching puberty?

Yes. News is that some ancient people marry even before reaching puberty. Aisha is one of them.

Thanks for saying Yes,because the bible itself claims that earlier Christians started having sex at the age of 3,i feel sorry for them.But Aisha is not the case.:lol
  Quote:
Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Have you ask your parents or grandparents on when they started to get
married? I myself believe that most people today started to has a family on their own in their late 20's that goes beyond the of the age when our parents or grandparents started to get married.Are you denying this facts as well?

I am not denying that people used to marry at a young age. Nor the fact that people today are marrying quite late.

Great,so you yourself agree that your parents or grandparents are not pedophile.That the same for Prophet Muhammad and Aisha marriage too.:solute:
  Quote:
Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-3-25 03:18 AM:
Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?

Onset of puberty is not a good sign to go boinking the young girls. The first sign of menstruation is not a sign for marriage. Puberty have stages. We are not living dark ages where people don't have enough knowledge.

So you agree again that we are not living in dark ages but your knowledges seems to be bankrupt by comparing 7th century norms with today.:jeler:

[ Last edited by wira_melayu on 9-4-2005 at 02:58 AM ]

wira_melayu

Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 8-4-2005 08:10 AM:


Now! WiraMelayu, answer me this.. what is your evidence to prove that Aisha was already had her menstrual periods BEFORE p.Muhammad had sex with her? Provide some reference to sahih hadith.

Even though we have established that puberty has been the historical, cultural and religious norm for indicating readiness for marriage, some may wonder at which age puberty normally takes place.  This is somewhat meaningless in regards to our specific discussion of Muhammad  and 'Aishah, since the hadith literature makes it clear that she had reached puberty.  However, in regards to puberty and at what age most girls have their first menstrual cycle,  'Abdul-Hamid Siddiqi says:

Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions.  Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age.  "The average temperature of the country or province," say the well-known authors of the book Woman, "is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty."5  Raciborski, Jaubert, Routh and many others have collected and collated statistics on the subject to which readers are referred.  Marie Espino has summarised some of these data as follows:  (a)  The limit of age for the first appearance of menstruation is between nine and twenty-four in the temperate-zone; (b) The average age varies widely and it ay be accepted as established that the nearer the Equator, the earlier the average age for menstruation.6
Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says: "The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others." An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:
"During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body."

con't

wira_melayu

con't

Above, we established that fact that getting married at puberty was an accepted practice amongst not only today's "primitive cultures", but specifically amongst the Semitic (i.e. Hebrew, Arab, Syriac, etc.) peoples of the Middle East.  In order to provide additional proof that Muhammad's  marriage to 'Aishah did not raise any eyebrows at that time, I here submit quotations from two Western female scholars who have studied Islam in detail:

"It is not clear just when the marriage actually took place.  According to some versions, it was in the month of Shawwal of the Year 1, that is, some seven or eight months after the arrival at Medina; but, according to others, it was not until after the Battle of Badr, that is, in Shawwal of the second year of the Hijrah.  In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much enamoured with her play."8
In the above quotation, the sources which are given for the latter date are "Nawawi" and "Tabari".  Both Imams al-Nawawi and al-Tabari were great Muslim scholars, but their works contain material that is less than authentic by Islamic standards, which is probably the reason over her questioning which date is authentic.  This is all beside the point, since we've already shown that authentic Islamic sources state that 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, was "nine years old".  The main point to note is that in "no version" was any comment made on their age difference or on 'Aishah's young age.  Why?  Such an early marriage was normal in all Semitic societies - such as the ones that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad grew up in!
Another author, Karen Armstrong, has this to add:  "Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty".9  This further establishes that the marriage took place at puberty and that, as such, no eyebrows were raised.  "Tabari", it should be mentioned, refers to Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Jareer al-Tabari (225-310 AH / 839-923 CE), who was a great Muslim scholar who is well known in the West for his Qur'anic commentary and history of the world.

It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the marriage of 'Aishah and Muhammad   took place when the former had reached puberty and that this was normal at the time.  This is no surprise, since anyone who studies the Muslim sources and Semitic culture would be forced to come to the same conclusion, since it is simply a historical fact.  It should be pointed out that both of the above quoted female authors do not hesitate to misrepresent Islam (intentionally or unintentionally) in their other writings.

happy reading.:solute:

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-4-8 10:47 AM:

Fine with me.Please predate this common understanding

You know the word come into use only in the 19th century. But the 21st century, most of the civilised people and non-muslims know the meaning of pedophile.

Gravity was "discovered" in the 17th century by Isaac Newton.. does that mean it was not there before the "discovery"? Of course not.. same as pedophilia.

Funny thing is, many Muhammadans still think the term pedophile cannot be used on ancient people or on the person who boinks a child if he marries the child.. thats wrong understanding. A child is a child even if the child is married or from another era.

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-4-8 10:47 AM:
9 years old you say? Then provide the Arabic calender calculation of her true age, as Bukhari has been extensively used as the only source of age confirmation. So what are you gonna base your calculations on? Forget Julian or the latter Gregorian? Just Arabian would do.

First, it was not only Bukhari who recorded that age of Aisha but Aisha's age was also recored by Imam Muslim as well as Abu Dawud... your autentic hadith collectors.

My apologies about the 9years old thingy.. Aisha was not 9year old she was at least 8year and 9month..

Very briefly
Islamic Lunar Calendar is abt 354day per year
Aisha 9year old -> 354x9=3186day old(minimum)

Solar Calendar: abt 365day per year
Solar year: 3186/365 approximately 8.7year = 8year 9month
Aisha was about 8year and 9months old(solar year) when p.Muhammad made out with her.

Fulamak.. 8 years old lah

:

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-4-9 02:55 AM:
Since the cultural norms during those years are widely pratices but the defination are not valid especially when their marriage are valid.

I disagree.

The term pedophile transcends time and relations.

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-4-9 02:55 AM:
Great,so you yourself agree that your parents or grandparents are not pedophile.That the same for Prophet Muhammad and Aisha marriage too.

As far as i know my relatives married when they were adults.

If my father had married my mom when she was 9 and when he was 53, then he is a pedophile.

Calling a spade a spade is honesty.

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-4-9 02:55 AM:
So you agree again that we are not living in dark ages but your knowledges seems to be bankrupt by comparing 7th century norms with today.

Thats were you make mistake. I am not comparing or complaining about the 7th century norm.. but about a man who claim to be an exemplar for others for all time. What p.Muhammad did is not worth imitating.

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2005-4-9 03:10 AM:
Even though we have established that puberty has been the historical, cultural and religious norm for indicating readiness for marriage, some may wonder at which age puberty normally takes ...

:hmm:
So you still couldn't find any sahih hadiths that says Aisha already reached puberty BEFORE p.Muhammad had sex with her..



[ Last edited by FaithHealer3 on 9-4-2005 at 06:06 AM ]

Fuzzman

FaithHealer wrote: [1]First, it was not only Bukhari who recorded that age of Aisha but Aisha's age was also recored by Imam Muslim as well as Abu Dawud... your autentic hadith collectors.[2]So you still couldn't find any sahih hadiths that says Aisha already reached puberty BEFORE p.Muhammad had sex with her..

So far as the hadith or sayings of the Prophet is concerned, Aishah is one of four persons ( the others being Abu Hurayrah,
Abdullah ibn Umar, and Anas ibn Malik ) who transmitted more than two thousand sayings. Bukhari whom you favoritely quote as the authenthic recorder doesn't belong with the original four mentioned above. Now isn't it strange to think that Hisham ibn `urwah  whose pupils include Malik ibn Anas did not record the event of Aishah marrying at the age of nine?

ARI FUZZZMAN

SHALOM !

To Fuzzman,

Sorry , i m not here to bash u guys . But just to clear things up - mind to give me the real answer from the muslim side - so according to Islam , is the marriage between Muhd PBUH and Aisha is fact or fictional ?

thx .

- ARCHANGEL -

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-5-20 01:33 AM:
So far as the hadith or sayings of the Prophet is concerned, Aishah is one of four persons ( the others being Abu Hurayrah,
Abdullah ibn Umar, and Anas ibn Malik ) who transmitted more than two thousand sayings.

ok..if you say so..

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-5-20 01:33 AM:
Bukhari whom you favoritely quote as the authenthic recorder doesn't belong with the original four mentioned above.
Now isn't it strange to think that Hisham ibn `urwah  whose pupils include Malik ibn Anas did not record the event of Aishah marrying at the age of nine?

Now now.. that don't seem right.
I am not sure about the long chain of isnads..  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad )
.. but hadiths by Bukhari did mention Aisha as the sorce..

ie..
From Bukhari vol. 7, #65: "Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said:  "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""

Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:"Narrated Aisha:  The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six...

Fuzzman

Narrated by Bukhari? Yes. Narrated by Aisha to Bukhari? No. You may call Bukhari a master collector of all narratives if you like. That's as far as the buck will go on this, no matter what.

ARI FUZZMAN

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-5-23 02:28 AM:
Narrated by Bukhari? Yes. Narrated by Aisha to Bukhari? No. You may call Bukhari a master collector of all narratives if you like. That's as far as the buck ...

You seem to have a problem of accepting the authentic hadiths.
If you are a Neo-Muslim who reject all hadith then your rejection of hadiths by Bukhari, that reports that Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9years old, is understandable.. but for a sunni muslim to doubt the sahih hadiths is quite weird. Are a sunni muslim?

Using your logic.. all hadith by Bukhari is unreliable cos "the buck stops there". But that's not what other muslims think..

Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 2005-5-23 04:31 PM:


You seem to have a problem of accepting the authentic hadiths.
If you are a Neo-Muslim who reject all hadith then your rejection of hadiths by Bukhari, that reports that Muhamma ...

Read back through all the postings and replies by Muslims, along this thread.

Debmey

Go read your hadiths and qurans. It clearly shows that Mo had sex witha 9 year old Aisha and raped war victims.

peace

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-5-23 11:16 PM:
Go read your hadiths and qurans. It clearly shows that Mo had sex witha 9 year old Aisha and raped war victims.

peace

The  above are typical of the words of a frustrated and desperate evangelist.

- Love

Debmey

Desperate words from Kennkid who have no answers to what is recorded in the hadiths

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

            "Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.  Hisham said:  "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""




Bukhari vol. 7, #88:

            "Narrated Urwa:  "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:

            "Narrated Aisha:  The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six.  We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj.  Then I got ill and my hair fell down.  Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends.  She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me.  She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.  I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it.  Then she took me into the house.  There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck."  Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).  Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Fuzzman

Debmey needs more straw for his strawman. Any donors out there? LOL
Bottom line says it all. Bukhari does not make out the marriage contract nor the marriage relationship between the prophet and Aishah to be anything more then the reporting of direct corelative sequences of events that lead from the contract to the actual house move. No where did it condemn nor were there any adverse or negative reactions from the Ummah or civilised society back then. So why are you jocks making a mountain outta mole hill here? You mean to say that you guys are more "civilised"?

You guys should cut through the unnecessary "civilised-theories" that sound of in fashion of "I-told-you-so-but-you-weren't-about-to-listen" shit and stuff, and instead show us all rather convincingly a couple of rebuttals from civilised society from the era of the prophet that censures and condemns the marriage to be paedophilic and against the norms of civilised society then?

C'mon jocks, time to walk your talk aight?

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 24-5-2005 at 01:22 AM ]