The evil that had blinded Muslims

eastrun · Post time 8-3-2007 11:49 PM

1)
My dear fellow, you need to understand the tradition of the Bedouins and their culture before Islam. You are not an Arab so how would you know how the Bedouins who lived and survived in the desert some 2000 years befopre Islam. Mohammed as per history of his conquest reflects the urge to be the eader of his tribe and at the same time the whole of the Arab nations. To become a leader of a nation during his period is not the same as what we see now. No such thing as political campaign to convience the mass. It is all war aganist the other tribe but how to create a war without a cause. Mohammed found a unique way and that was through the spread of his new found religion called Islam. Are you that stupid not to underatand facts?

My answer:

You also not an Arab, and then how do you know the way those Bedouins live?. You said Muhammad tried to be a leader of the nations by creating war. How many times should I repeat the same thing. Who started the war?. Not Muhammad, but the enemies started that..by insulted the religion. I asked you many times, why your Hindusm followers killed the Muslims when they tried to destroy the dolls...which you assumed as Gods?. It is because they insulted your religion and tried to attack your faith isn't not?.

Every prophet was a leader and Moses was a leader for the Jews which he saved the Jews from the cruel Firaun. And the Jews accepted him as thier leader and thier prophet and they rejected other prophets that came after Moses including Muhammad and Jesus.

From the history and as well as Quranic view, Muhammad has no intention to get the highest position in the nation, but he did protect the religion when the enemies attacked the religion. And he never forced the enemies to accept what he brought!!!.

2)
There is no holy in Islam or the prophet of Islam. It is all battle and blood so please do not speak about holy. The world hly was adoped by Muslims for the Christian source. The Chiristians refered to their divine doctorine as the Holy Bible and so the Muslims called theirs as Holy Quran after Christian Holy Bible. But as far as I can see thee is nothing holly about the Quran. 30 percent OT and 70 percent fiction.

My answer:

I refer the word HOLY to ALL Prophets, not only Muhammad, if u refused to accept that, then it shows that you also not agreed when I called your rishis as holy prophets. HOLY is a word. So you also can call your scripture as HOLY VEDAS if you want.Nobody disagree that.Because you believe the scriptures. Then, why are you feeling so worried when the Muslims put the same thing for Quran?. I don't agree the way you judge the Holy Quran because you never read the book briefly. You only made an assumption.Which the assumption will never take you to the right path.

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3)
Is that not a fact? They survive without the thought of religious belief and  you do not not know if they will be going to heavan or hell as believed by you.

My answer:
InsyaAllah the atheist will go into hell because they have no believe in God.They may survive on earth, but SORRY for the hereafter.Allah knows best.
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4)
Why do you expect the same thing? The world has changed since the time of Jesus and Mohammed and you expect it to remain as it was?  You must e a joker. You believe in one GOd and so do the Christians and Hindus too. What makes you think Christians or Hindus have multiple GODs? Please do not refer to the trinity or Bhrama, Vishnu and Shiva. You would not understand what it means nor are you prepared to understand such concept.

My answer:
When you read the Holy Bible, you know what is the first command of Jesus.He said:

"The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mark 12:29)

Jesus not saying he is the God, but he claimed the God also his God, see the bolded word.

Moses said the same thing 1300 years before without the change of a dot.The original message was THE GOD IS ONE.

Then some of the Jews mocked him and changed the scriptures and God sent down Jesus to re-pair the law (as mentioned above), the Jews mocked him and said he is not God and some accepted him as God, just because he did miracles. Then Allah sent Muhammad to re-pair the law again.

I asked you, after Muhammad, why no prophet comes?.Because the laws have been fixed.But, why don't you answer my question?
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5)
Challenge what?  The Muslims themsleve do not understand the Quran and so need another book and they call it the hadith. Why don't you try writing another Veda?

My answer:
Do your Vedas made such challenge?. Of course not.Then why do you made rasied such challenge?. The hadith is as explanation of the Holy Quran like, how to pray and etc.My Holy Quran challenged you,since you mocked the scripture, kindly produce a surah as prove that the scripture is not from Allah.

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6)
And so was HE to the others. If you want to accept as such. You see it was un fortunate Mohammed did not get to see GOD but only a invisible wittness but to Moses HE appeared in the form of the burning bush but to our Rishis, GOD appeared in person. So tell me whose scripture is more deserving? I need not have to tell you that, do I?

My answer:
No matter how God appeared to reveal His revelations, but still He is the witness.So, when you compare God came to Moses as burning bush, came to Rishis as person..is not a matter...because He still the witness.Well..God also sent the revelations to Jesus and David through Gabriel (the angel).There is no different...because STILL He is the witness.

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7)
Are you blind and ignorant? What does it mean whae it says If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum ?

It clearly says when you attack them and if they seek asylm without a fight thne give them protection otherwise kill them. If you cannot read between the lines you are not fit to debate issues that you do not understand.

My answer:

Do you know what is the meaning of asylum.In Malay it is 'tempat perlindungan'.See dictionary. Did the verse above say when they don't ask the asylum, YOU KILL THEM!!!.You added the verse which Quran not mentioned it.

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8)
So, what you mean to say is GOD was unsuccessful or failed in his first attempt? Is GOD that weak? I can accept if Allah is weak but GOD, I don't think so. All Mighty knower is so weak that HIS attempt failed is the understanding of Muslims. Now I know why all this in fighting among the Muslims because Allah is a weak god of the Muslims. Yes, that is what you are saying and I believe you

My answer:

I didn't.By the way what is the relationship between choosing special persons to accept His revelations with the weakness of Allah?. Of course He is the greatest and that's why He is able to make choices.And it is normal when He sent a messenger, the people mocked the messenger...it is like a law of Allah. See this:

"We did send apostles before thee amongst the religious sects of old:But never came an apostle to them but they mocked him." (Surah Al-Hijr 15:10~11).

Then which part made you say Allah is weak?.

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9)
If they can turn and twist now surely the elders of the past could have done the same to the Quran and hadith after the death of Mohammed. That is why I say the Arabs were a cunning breed of Bedoiuns who exploited the religion founded by Mohammed for their selfish reason.

My answer:
Your scriptures existed thousands years before Muhammad.From that, you can imagine how many parts of the scriptures have been distorted.Can you confirm the scriptures you hold is the original ones?.Well...your scriptures also never made any convenant that the scriptures will stay preserved.

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10)
There was no such qualification as far as Mohammed or Islam was concern. There is not such thing in the Torah or Bible to say Mohammed was the chosen prophet of GOD. It was only claimed by the Arabs and not the Jews or Christians. And so how can I accept Muslims version which does not telly with the Jewish or the Christian holy books

My answer:
The topic was, in order to be a prophet, you must have a scripture.I asked you, is there anyone today has a scripture to make him qualified as a prophet?.If you don't believe Muhammad just because the Christians mocked him, then asked the Christians, why they accepted Jesus as prophet even though Jews mocked him also.

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[ Last edited by eastrun at 8-3-2007 11:51 PM ]

loona · Post time 8-3-2007 11:51 PM

Originally posted by barney50 at 8-3-2007 10:26 AM
Adhi Shankara, Sri Ramaling Swami are a few such people who broeugh new messages for mankind

Those people arent prophets! and they dont bring "updated" messages to mankind, but just philospher & writer to hindu group.
So you better keep quiet and not blowing your own trumpet about other religion. You failed to proof that there are prophet after Muhammad saw. You failed to proof that there is a sripture sent to mankind after Quran. So, dont boast.

Originally posted by barney50 at 8-3-2007 10:26 AM
What makes you so sure? Is it because the Quran tells you so? Why notask the Christians and hear what they will tell about the second comingof Jesus and what Jesus will be upholding? Pathetic!

I dont bring an issue about second coming of Jesus in Christians' perspective! pathetic la you!
What i did mention is the second coming of Jesus in Islamic perspective! If you dont buy the message, it is not my problem!
However, Christians are welcome to share their part of message related to the second coming of Jesus!
and both Islam & Christian are waiting for the event, and the day will come for all major religions will unite under his kingdom.
and you also can share part of your story of reincarnated Jesus in this world..you are welcome to do that, and maybe the story of Jesus upholding the Vedas! Pathetic!

"Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die and the day I am raised up again alive. (Surah Maryam: 33)"

[ Last edited by loona at 9-3-2007 12:00 AM ]

barney50 · Post time 9-3-2007 09:44 AM

Reply #61 eastrun's post

You also not an Arab, and then how do you know the way those Bedouins live?. You said Muhammad tried to be a leader of the nations by creating war. How many times should I repeat the same thing. Who started the war?. Not Muhammad, but the enemies started that..by insulted the religion. I asked you many times, why your Hindusm followers killed the Muslims when they tried to destroy the dolls...which you assumed as Gods?. It is because they insulted your religion and tried to attack your faith isn't not?.
Every prophet was a leader and Moses was a leader for the Jews which he saved the Jews from the cruel Firaun. And the Jews accepted him as thier leader and thier prophet and they rejected other prophets that came after Moses including Muhammad and Jesus.
From the history and as well as Quranic view, Muhammad has no intention to get the highest position in the nation, but he did protect the religion when the enemies attacked the religion. And he never forced the enemies to accept what he brought!!!.

Copy the Code

You're asking silly question like a 6 year old kid. Don't you know what is history? Have you not studied about people and places? That is the problem with convert like you who does not study the origin and history of people. Your ancestors converted to Islam without studing the history of that people and I dont; blame them because were ignorant of the it as there were no books nor interenet facilities then but now in this modern age people like you still remain the same. If you want to convert to a religion of others first stusdy the antropolgy of that particular race and how their religion developed only than would you be able to understand their race and religion and practice. My dear ignorant friend, when people from another land invade your country and dictate you on what you should believe and practice surely you would fight back to save your belief and your country. As in the case of Mohammed he was in his own country and tried to change the practice of the age old religious practice of the Meccans and you expect them to just listen and change over night? You are a joker and an misguided fool. Listen child, prophets or messangers are not leaders but teachers of the right path. When you say leader it means Mohammed had an agenda and his was a political one and it was obvious in his quest to convert and establish a kingdom which he called it an Islamic nation. Are your ignorant of such facts?

I refer the word HOLY to ALL Prophets, not only Muhammad, if u refused to accept that, then it shows that you also not agreed when I called your rishis as holy prophets. HOLY is a word. So you also can call your scripture as HOLY VEDAS if you want.Nobody disagree that.Because you believe the scriptures. Then, why are you feeling so worried when the Muslims put the same thing for Quran?. I don't agree the way you judge the Holy Quran because you never read the book briefly. You only made an assumption.Which the assumption will never take you to the right path.

Copy the Code

Anthing Mohammed did or practice belonged to another race of people of another kingdom. It is obvious that when he started to preach his form of doctorine he knew the consequences and so assimilated the Jewish and Christian belief in order to brng them into his plot and that plot is a united Arab Islamic nation. A vision of a poitical leader and not a prophet.
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InsyaAllah the atheist will go into hell because they have no believe in God.They may survive on earth, but SORRY for the hereafter.Allah knows best.

Copy the Code

So, that is what you wish for and believe uh!? That is stupid because you have yet to see one but wish for others to be there. A dreamers dream that would only fade in his death.
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barney50 · Post time 9-3-2007 09:45 AM

sambungan

When you read the Holy Bible, you know what is the first command of Jesus.He said:
"The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mark 12:29)
Jesus not saying he is the God, but he claimed the God also his God, see the bolded word.
Moses said the same thing 1300 years before without the change of a dot.The original message was THE GOD IS ONE.
Then some of the Jews mocked him and changed the scriptures and God sent down Jesus to re-pair the law (as mentioned above), the Jews mocked him and said he is not God and some accepted him as God, just because he did miracles. Then Allah sent Muhammad to re-pair the law again.
I asked you, after Muhammad, why no prophet comes?.Because the laws have been fixed.But, why don't you answer my question?

Copy the Code

Jesus said so because that is what the peasants expected of him. Situation was such he could not introduce himself as the one and the same. It was only later that he said he is who he is. You wouldn't understand such philosophy my boy!. Moses was not of a miraclious birth. His mother was not told of his birth nor was he brought up by his mother. He was adopted by the Pharoah's sister and brough up as a prince. Did you not study the history of Moses? Repair? Is that what Muslims had bee told and thought to believe? So the creator made a mistake of sending or picking the wrong persons for his mission and finally got the right peson? Is that what your are trying to convey? So, now you accept Allah made a mistake? You accept Allah is not all perfect? If Allah is not all perfect how could Mohammed a mere mortal be a perfect man? Now it is obvious that the Arabs had been deluding non Arab converts for centuries. They mad a not so perfect man into something super perfect man. Sorry my boy, it's not my fault that you have been cheated but the Arab Muslims who cheated your ancestors into believing so and you just followed their path. It's time for you to think and think hard so that you'd not feel guilty in your last day/b]
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Do your Vedas made such challenge?. Of course not.Then why do you made rasied such challenge?. The hadith is as explanation of the Holy Quran like, how to pray and etc.My Holy Quran challenged you,since you mocked the scripture, kindly produce a surah as prove that the scripture is not from Allah.
Copy the Code

Our scriptures were transmitted through the Rishis and they were from GOD but yours was by Mohammed from Allahas calimed by the Muslims. There is a difference between Allah and GOD. If you believe GOD and Allah is the same then you must also accept our ways but that's not what the majority of Muslims believe. They say Allah is Allah while others are devil worshipers. And that is why the invading barbarians destroyed the Hindu temples in India to establish their mosque and religion. Can you see the difference here?
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No matter how God appeared to reveal His revelations, but still He is the witness.So, when you compare God came to Moses as burning bush, came to Rishis as person..is not a matter...because He still the witness.Well..God also sent the revelations to Jesus and David through Gabriel (the angel).There is no different...because STILL He is the witness.
Copy the Code

Looks like you did not study the bible well. Gaberial did not send and message to Jesus. Jesus was in direct contact. Yoir knowledge in the bible is limited my boy. There is alot of difference between direct and indirect. Direct enegry has more power than indirect energy. When you charge your hand phone you use an adaptor because it cannot use direct current as it wout blow off. Mohammed use indirect energy and so it is not so powerful as jesus or our Rishis. Need I spell it for you?
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Do you know what is the meaning of asylum.In Malay it is 'tempat perlindungan'.See dictionary. Did the verse above say when they don't ask the asylum, YOU KILL THEM!!!.You added the verse which Quran not mentioned it.
Copy the Code

You are not fluuent with your own religion but try to twist and turn expecting to believe others would be as ignorant as you. That is silliy of you. It clearly says if they surrender without a fight then give them protection otherwise attack and kill. That is what it means and you cannot twist and turn the truth to suit your whimps and fancies.
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barney50 · Post time 9-3-2007 09:46 AM

sambungan

When you read the Holy Bible, you know what is the first command of Jesus.He said:
"The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mark 12:29)
Jesus not saying he is the God, but he claimed the God also his God, see the bolded word.
Moses said the same thing 1300 years before without the change of a dot.The original message was THE GOD IS ONE.
Then some of the Jews mocked him and changed the scriptures and God sent down Jesus to re-pair the law (as mentioned above), the Jews mocked him and said he is not God and some accepted him as God, just because he did miracles. Then Allah sent Muhammad to re-pair the law again.
I asked you, after Muhammad, why no prophet comes?.Because the laws have been fixed.But, why don't you answer my question?

Copy the Code

Jesus said so because that is what the peasants expected of him. Situation was such he could not introduce himself as the one and the same. It was only later that he said he is who he is. You wouldn't understand such philosophy my boy!. Moses was not of a miraclious birth. His mother was not told of his birth nor was he brought up by his mother. He was adopted by the Pharoah's sister and brough up as a prince. Did you not study the history of Moses? Repair? Is that what Muslims had bee told and thought to believe? So the creator made a mistake of sending or picking the wrong persons for his mission and finally got the right peson? Is that what your are trying to convey? So, now you accept Allah made a mistake? You accept Allah is not all perfect? If Allah is not all perfect how could Mohammed a mere mortal be a perfect man? Now it is obvious that the Arabs had been deluding non Arab converts for centuries. They mad a not so perfect man into something super perfect man. Sorry my boy, it's not my fault that you have been cheated but the Arab Muslims who cheated your ancestors into believing so and you just followed their path. It's time for you to think and think hard so that you'd not feel guilty in your last day/b]
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Do your Vedas made such challenge?. Of course not.Then why do you made rasied such challenge?. The hadith is as explanation of the Holy Quran like, how to pray and etc.My Holy Quran challenged you,since you mocked the scripture, kindly produce a surah as prove that the scripture is not from Allah.

Copy the Code

Our scriptures were transmitted through the Rishis and they were from GOD but yours was by Mohammed from Allahas calimed by the Muslims. There is a difference between Allah and GOD. If you believe GOD and Allah is the same then you must also accept our ways but that's not what the majority of Muslims believe. They say Allah is Allah while others are devil worshipers. And that is why the invading barbarians destroyed the Hindu temples in India to establish their mosque and religion. Can you see the difference here?
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No matter how God appeared to reveal His revelations, but still He is the witness.So, when you compare God came to Moses as burning bush, came to Rishis as person..is not a matter...because He still the witness.Well..God also sent the revelations to Jesus and David through Gabriel (the angel).There is no different...because STILL He is the witness.

Copy the Code

Looks like you did not study the bible well. Gaberial did not send and message to Jesus. Jesus was in direct contact. Yoir knowledge in the bible is limited my boy. There is alot of difference between direct and indirect. Direct enegry has more power than indirect energy. When you charge your hand phone you use an adaptor because it cannot use direct current as it wout blow off. Mohammed use indirect energy and so it is not so powerful as jesus or our Rishis. Need I spell it for you?
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Do you know what is the meaning of asylum.In Malay it is 'tempat perlindungan'.See dictionary. Did the verse above say when they don't ask the asylum, YOU KILL THEM!!!.You added the verse which Quran not mentioned it.

Copy the Code

You are not fluent with your own religion but try to twist and turn expecting others would be as ignorant as you. That is silliy of you. It clearly says if they surrender without a fight then give them protection otherwise attack and kill. That is what it means and you cannot twist and turn the truth to suit your whimps and fancies.
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[ Last edited by barney50 at 9-3-2007 09:52 AM ]

eastrun · Post time 9-3-2007 07:15 PM

1)
You're asking silly question like a 6 year old kid. Don't you know what is history? Have you not studied about people and places? That is the problem with convert like you who does not study the origin and history of people. Your ancestors converted to Islam without studing the history of that people and I dont; blame them because were ignorant of the it as there were no books nor interenet facilities then but now in this modern age people like you still remain the same. If you want to convert to a religion of others first stusdy the antropolgy of that particular race and how their religion developed only than would you be able to understand their race and religion and practice. My dear ignorant friend, when people from another land invade your country and dictate you on what you should believe and practice surely you would fight back to save your belief and your country. As in the case of Mohammed he was in his own country and tried to change the practice of the age old religious practice of the Meccans and you expect them to just listen and change over night? You are a joker and an misguided fool. Listen child, prophets or messangers are not leaders but teachers of the right path. When you say leader it means Mohammed had an agenda and his was a political one and it was obvious in his quest to convert and establish a kingdom which he called it an Islamic nation. Are your ignorant of such facts?

My answer:

History..the word came from HIS STORY. In this case we don't know his story (the writer or not).What we can do is just making assumptions based on the artifacts and etc. So, you can't blame others when they view the history by thier own views. Because thier views might be accceptable. Because only the person who wrote the history knows what was really happened.That's a problem with a person that only look on the negative assumptions of the history.That is why even with the strong evidences, you never able to accept them.But keep following the negative side.Old man, you should not act this childish.Arguing with others by looking at the negative side only.

Prophets are the messengers as well as the leaders. And that's why Allah sent one prophet for each ummah except the Jews. To lead them to the truth path by uttering Allah's words to the ummah. Each prophet has an agenda when they came to the 'ummah' that is...to make the ummah follow them and worship ONE GOD.And only Islam has strict Monotheism!!!.

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2)
Anthing Mohammed did or practice belonged to another race of people of another kingdom. It is obvious that when he started to preach his form of doctorine he knew the consequences and so assimilated the Jewish and Christian belief in order to brng them into his plot and that plot is a united Arab Islamic nation. A vision of a poitical leader and not a prophet.

My answer:
Old man, this is only your assumption.No evidences..so not acceptable. I also can accused your rishis blindly like this if I want.But it only make me feel stupid and not honest.

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3)
So, that is what you wish for and believe uh!? That is stupid because you have yet to see one but wish for others to be there. A dreamers dream that would only fade in his death.

My answer:
Yes, that is what I believe...it is not stupid because I have made no assumptions.It stated in my Holy BooK, and only ALLAH has right to punish or forgive them.That's why I wrote GOD WILLING (InsyaAllah).

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4) Jesus said so because that is what the peasants expected of him. Situation was such he could not introduce himself as the one and the same. It was only later that he said he is who he is. You wouldn't understand such philosophy my boy!. Moses was not of a miraclious birth. His mother was not told of his birth nor was he brought up by his mother. He was adopted by the Pharoah's sister and brough up as a prince. Did you not study the history of Moses? Repair? Is that what Muslims had bee told and thought to believe? So the creator made a mistake of sending or picking the wrong persons for his mission and finally got the right peson? Is that what your are trying to convey? So, now you accept Allah made a mistake? You accept Allah is not all perfect? If Allah is not all perfect how could Mohammed a mere mortal be a perfect man? Now it is obvious that the Arabs had been deluding non Arab converts for centuries. They mad a not so perfect man into something super perfect man. Sorry my boy, it's not my fault that you have been cheated but the Arab Muslims who cheated your ancestors into believing so and you just followed their path. It's time for you to think and think hard so that you'd not feel guilty in your last day/b]

My answer:
Then you are accusing that Jesus lied to the peoples, when they ask about the most important commandment?.See the word carefully.

He said the "Lord is OUR God, and OUR God is ONE", which mean the God also his God and Jews's.

He never mentioned or called himself as God.But he does confessed God Almighty gave him the miracles, furthermore He said only God is qualified to be praised.I know the history of Moses,but don't you ever wondered why the Jews accepted Moses and rejected Jesus?.If Jesus was God, he should able to make them accepted him.But no...everytime he failed, he cried to God..everytime the Jews against him..he tried to God...Do these make any sense?.

What I meant by repair was...when the people mocked the prophet, they mocked the laws.So, that's why He send another prophet to re-correct and reconfirm the laws.Then after they still not accepted the laws...then He give them punishment.See this:

"Allah sets forth a Parable: a city enjoying security and quiet, abundantly supplied with sustenance from every place: Yet was it ungrateful for the favours of Allah. so Allah made it taste of hunger and terror (in extremes) (closing in on it) like a garment (from every side), because of the (evil) which (its people) wrought.
And there came to them an Messenger from among themselves, but they falsely rejected him; so the Wrath seized them even in the midst of their iniquities"
(Surah An-nahl 16:112~113)

That is the power He showed to those who rejected the faith...So, which part made you think He is weak?
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5)
Our scriptures were transmitted through the Rishis and they were from GOD but yours was by Mohammed from Allahas calimed by the Muslims. There is a difference between Allah and GOD. If you believe GOD and Allah is the same then you must also accept our ways but that's not what the majority of Muslims believe. They say Allah is Allah while others are devil worshipers. And that is why the invading barbarians destroyed the Hindu temples in India to establish their mosque and religion. Can you see the difference here?

My answer:
Open the Malay/Indonesia Bible..the word Allah is there.Which refer to God..So, not onlY Muslim believe in Him and call Him with that name.He is the same, but what I have explained to you before, He sent same laws,but each time the laws have been broken, he sent another messenger to re-correct, re-confirm and re-add the law. Recorrect consists repair and renew the laws, which mean some part of the laws are invalid, and that is why the faith is different.I have see no difference. My friend, he gave an Indian a chance to live in his orchard, but the Indian built the 'kuil' and he expands the kuil without an agreement from my friend.So,is that what your religion has taught you?.:@
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6)
Looks like you did not study the bible well. Gaberial did not send and message to Jesus. Jesus was in direct contact. Yoir knowledge in the bible is limited my boy. There is alot of difference between direct and indirect. Direct enegry has more power than indirect energy. When you charge your hand phone you use an adaptor because it cannot use direct current as it wout blow off. Mohammed use indirect energy and so it is not so powerful as jesus or our Rishis. Need I spell it for you?

My answer:
Ask the Christians yourself and they won't agree. Jesus get the message from Gabriel.I have no worry if your Rishis got the messages direct from Him or not.Because as long as the messages have been received, no problems to accept it.Well...David also got the messages through Gabriel...Suka hati Tuhan nak bagi macam mana.Why are you so worry about that?
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7)You are not fluent with your own religion but try to twist and turn expecting others would be as ignorant as you. That is silliy of you. It clearly says if they surrender without a fight then give them protection otherwise attack and kill. That is what it means and you cannot twist and turn the truth to suit your whimps and fancies.

My answer:
You add the verses which Quran never mentioned them.Is that what you called fluent?.Old man, you should feel ashamed.When I give simple and short verse also you hard to understand it.Pity,old man..

[ Last edited by eastrun at 9-3-2007 07:16 PM ]

loona · Post time 9-3-2007 07:28 PM

From my observation, talking to this barney boy cant really achieve any understanding. What he understand is only attack and kill...is this the words comes from somebody that claims he understand about religion and God? I believe, he is too much obsessed with the killing, his mind is full of "killing", and i think this kind of person that is too dangerous to live in a mixed societies and mixed religions. He is the one that can fit the catogory of extremist and terrorist...but instead keep blaming muslims as terrorist and extremist. Look yourself deep down in your heart barney boy...from far i can see the black and dirt heart inside you, and yet stiill claims that you understand God! Poorah!

barney50 · Post time 9-3-2007 09:08 PM

responded by loona:From my observation, talking to this barney boy cant really achieve any understanding. What he understand is only attack and kill...is this the words comes from somebody that claims he understand about religion and God? I believe, he is too much obsessed with the killing, his mind is full of "killing", and i think this kind of person that is too dangerous to live in a mixed societies and mixed religions. He is the one that can fit the catogory of extremist and terrorist...but instead keep blaming muslims as terrorist and extremist. Look yourself deep down in your heart barney boy...from far i can see the black and dirt heart inside you, and yet stiill claims that you understand God! Poorah!

Copy the Code

You cannot because you are out of bullets. You do not have materials except the same old quotes and broken record which have no value in the present world. To me it's like talking to some 6 year old kid who does not seem to have the grasping mind. You are the the 6 year old kido pretending to be a man who can comprehend but in actual fact you cannot. It's to far beyond comprehension and you hust pretend to be a smart fellow. I point out what is in reality. What is happening in the Islamic world and why are Musims killing themselves. All these facts are not hidden but out in the open. Muslims like yo just pretend it's not happening but put the whole blame on the west and non believers. Is that what you call understanding? Go on and live in the dream that your prophet had promised you and all would be well by tomorrow. Piiiiiiiiiiiiirah!

loona · Post time 9-3-2007 09:38 PM

it is better to be a 6 year old kid rather than 50 year old man who love to kill and rage war against others. 6 year old kid too tired hearing words "war", "kill" from old fanatic extreme religious man who hate peace. I guess you also need to play kite sometimes...lets free your muddy dirty old corroded mind.

barney50 · Post time 9-3-2007 10:06 PM

Reply #66 eastrun's post

History..the word came from HIS STORY. In this case we don't know
his story (the writer or not).What we can do is just making assumptions
based on the artifacts and etc. So, you can't blame others when they
view the history by thier own views. Because thier views might be
accceptable. Because only the person who wrote the history knows what
was really happened.That's a problem with a person that only look on
the negative assumptions of the history.That is why even with the
strong evidences, you never able to accept them.But keep following the
negative side.Old man, you should not act this childish.Arguing with
others by looking at the negative side only.

Copy the Code

So, that is how you have been making assumption of your Quran and hadith? Because both the Quran and hadith are like history book written by someone or some people of the 7th or 8th century. Boy, you are a fickle minded child. To back your claim you bring up some cock and bull story and later you change the story to suit you whimps. Better make up your mind before you wish to argue on certain issue.

Prophets are the messengers as well as the leaders. And that's why
Allah sent one prophet for each ummah except the Jews. To lead them to
the truth path by uttering Allah's words to the ummah. Each prophet has
an agenda when they came to the 'ummah' that is...to make the ummah
follow them and worship ONE GOD.And only Islam has strict Monotheism!!!.

Copy the Code

If prophets become leaders than they are not prophets but politicians with an idology. And their idiology is obvious from the stand point of Islam. A political party with a goal to rule people with and their idiology similar to communism. Not accept by democratic manner but a forced rule. Can you comprehend that my boy?

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Old man, this is only your assumption.No evidences..so not
acceptable. I also can accused your rishis blindly like this if I
want.But it only make me feel stupid and not honest.

Copy the Code

No one is forcing you to accept it but that is a deniable fact. You cannot accuse our Rishis because we were not compled to follow but was given the freedom of choice. It was a rule of Kings and not Rishis so you are lost here my boy.

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Yes, that is what I believe...it is not stupid because I have made
no assumptions.It stated in my Holy BooK, and only ALLAH has right to
punish or forgive them.That's why I wrote GOD WILLING (InsyaAllah).

Copy the Code

You say only Allah has the right to punish them? Is it not a contradicting statement coming from a Muslim? In that case why the syariah courts and punishment? Can you explain? Or do you wish to back out form this issue?

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Then you are accusing that Jesus lied to the peoples, when they ask
about the most important commandment?.See the word carefully.
He said the "Lord is OUR God, and OUR God is ONE", which mean the God also his God and Jews's.

Copy the Code

He spoke in parable to simple minded people. Can you understand what is simple minded? No one is denying that and we all know GOD is one but HE has the power to divide. Do you doubt HIS power? If you doubt HIS power than you are not a person of faith but a great pretender like a wolf in a sheep's cloth.

He never mentioned or called himself as God.But he does confessed
God Almighty gave him the miracles, furthermore He said only God is
qualified to be praised.I know the history of Moses,but don't you ever
wondered why the Jews accepted Moses and rejected Jesus?.If Jesus was
God, he should able to make them accepted him.But no...everytime he
failed, he cried to God..everytime the Jews against him..he tried to
God...Do these make any sense?.

Copy the Code

My dear boy, don't you know about doubtful Thomas? There are people who would doubt and there are people who believe with faith. The influence of strong elders had made some sectin of the Jews to doubt Jesus and the result was his death by crucifiction. Muslim's after 600 years of Jesus death did not believe he was crucified because Mohammed gave his own version of the bible. To the Jews Mohammed too was not the prophet they had been waiting for and Mohammed could not convience them with his mambo jambo. What say you aout that? The reason you do not understand is when GOD descend to earth HE would not have the full power because HE had taken the form of mortal. But what can I say as Muslims were nt educated on this aspect of spirituality. They were only educated to fight in the cause of Allah and if they fail to do so would mean hellfire. Mohammed put fear in the hearts of his followers in order to fulfill his mission of religious politics. You are blinded ignorance of the real truth

What I meant by repair was...when the people mocked the prophet,
they mocked the laws.So, that's why He send another prophet to
re-correct and reconfirm the laws.Then after they still not accepted
the laws...then He give them punishment.See this:
"Allah sets forth a Parable: a city enjoying security and quiet,
abundantly supplied with sustenance from every place: Yet was it
ungrateful for the favours of Allah. so Allah made it taste of hunger
and terror (in extremes) (closing in on it) like a garment (from every
side), because of the (evil) which (its people) wrought.
And there came to them an Messenger from among themselves, but they falsely rejected him; so the Wrath seized them even in the midst of their iniquities"
(Surah An-nahl 16:112~113)
That is the power He showed to those who rejected the faith...So, which part made you think He is weak?

Copy the Code

So, could I say in Aceh the 200,000 lives lost in Tsunami was the warth of GOD? Then they must have sinned badly to make Allah angry that he took 200,000 people at one go. But some angry god this Allah of yours. You have any better explanation for your point? I still say according to Muslims point of veiw Allah had failed and so he need to correct his failier and that is what being told by your Quran.

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Open the Malay/Indonesia Bible..the word Allah is there.Which refer
to God..So, not onlY Muslim believe in Him and call Him with that
name.He is the same, but what I have explained to you before, He sent
same laws,but each time the laws have been broken, he sent another
messenger to re-correct, re-confirm and re-add the law. Recorrect
consists repair and renew the laws, which mean some part of the laws
are invalid, and that is why the faith is different.I have see no
difference. My friend, he gave an Indian a chance to live in his
orchard, but the Indian built the 'kuil' and he expands the kuil
without an agreement from my friend.So,is that what your religion has
taught you?.

Copy the Code

Now you say some part of the laws are invalid. So you do not respect Allah's law but believe what Mohammed had said about changing Allah's law? Which is which my boy? You are going on a turn around here and there commiting blasphemy against Allah. Our religion thought us that never live in a land where there is no Temple for GOD. So wherever Hindus are there has to be a Temple for GOD too. Anywahy what has that got to do with the issue at hand? Are you trying to wiggle your way out of this situation where y9ou are unable to debate? What else have you got now?:@
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Ask the Christians yourself and they won't agree. Jesus get the
message from Gabriel.I have no worry if your Rishis got the messages
direct from Him or not.Because as long as the messages have been
received, no problems to accept it.Well...David also got the messages
through Gabriel...Suka hati Tuhan nak bagi macam mana.Why are you so
worry about that?

Copy the Code

I worried because you got your facts wrong. Nowhere in the bible does it say Gabriel spoke to Jesus. Yes, Gabriel spoke to hsi mother Mary but not to Jesus because Jesus is far more superior to Gabriel and only Gabriel knows the truth about Jesus. You my ignorant friend know your facts before you pick the topic.
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You add the verses which Quran never mentioned them.Is that what you
called fluent?.Old man, you should feel ashamed.When I give simple and
short verse also you hard to understand it.Pity,old man..

Copy the Code

What add? Are you accusing me ot rewriting the Quran? You must be crazry to accuse me of such. So me what verse did I add otherwise you are doing the bluffology game here to escape from this debate. If you cannot continue say so and I would accept your defeat. Simple shot verse is meaningless on a particular stand point. You have to explain with facts of such verse or else its like jsut accept what I say without argument like what communist idology states. When I talk you listen or else you'll be shot. That is communist idiology and looks like Islam is similar to it.

[ Last edited by barney50 at 9-3-2007 10:09 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 9-3-2007 11:36 PM

1)
So, that is how you have been making assumption of your Quran and hadith? Because both the Quran and hadith are like history book written by someone or some people of the 7th or 8th century. Boy, you are a fickle minded child. To back your claim you bring up some cock and bull story and later you change the story to suit you whimps. Better make up your mind before you wish to argue on certain issue.

My answer:
That is why I asked you yesterday...your scriptures were presented thousands years before the Holy Quran.From there, you just can imagine how many parts of the scriptures have been distorted. Furthermore, your scriptures never made any convenant to build confidence that the scriptures will stay preserved. Then, why are you so worry about other scriptures, which your scriptures themselves never made any commentaries about the scriptures that you claimed are wrong.

At least, in the Holy Quran got many prophecises that happened today.Therefore hard to say that it is a history book. Old man, you are the one that picked a small part of the Holy Quran, and then change the meaning to suit with what you have programmed in your mind.Even though, it is clearly what you are claimed are wrong, you still stick with them.Cukuplah tu, orang tua,bertaubatlah sebelum terlambat.

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2)
If prophets become leaders than they are not prophets but politicians with an idology. And their idiology is obvious from the stand point of Islam. A political party with a goal to rule people with and their idiology similar to communism. Not accept by democratic manner but a forced rule. Can you comprehend that my boy

My answer:
Ahakz..is it by only become a leader you will automatically become a politican?.For example, you are a father and a husband, a leader of a family.Are you assumed yourself as a politican of your family?. For example, you are a leader of your kuil, then are you called a politican by your followers?.I wonder la...even a small child,when you explain something, they can understand, but you, a 53 years old guys...don't know la what to say....just lower than a child

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3)No one is forcing you to accept it but that is a deniable fact. You cannot accuse our Rishis because we were not compled to follow but was given the freedom of choice. It was a rule of Kings and not Rishis so you are lost here my boy

My answer:
A deniable fact becomes useless without evidences.I can say you are 'cakap kosong'.Just accused here and there by following your own mind.Before this, I also explained the freedom in Islam.You do wrong and select the wrong path,you will be punished, and that is because of your own fault.Allah gave two path.Then you decide which path you want to go. After that, don't blame Allah...Ya, Allah, tak faham2 lagi rupanya dia..

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4)
You say only Allah has the right to punish them? Is it not a contradicting statement coming from a Muslim? In that case why the syariah courts and punishment? Can you explain? Or do you wish to back out form this issue?

My answer:
Allah has made many laws regarding this in the Holy Quran as well as in the previous book. For Example:The punishment for those who like to rob...

'As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power."(Surah Al-Maidah 5:38)

But Allah not blindly punish them.He said:

"But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."(Surah Al-Maidah 5:39)

Everytime before He punish, He will give a chance to repent.He is not blindly create the laws to punish you.You said that Islam is cruel and etc, because you always think that Islam punishes the people blindly, Allah made the laws of punishment blindly and Muhammad killed the enemies BLINDLY.If you read carefully, there is always a chance to repent.

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5)
He spoke in parable to simple minded people. Can you understand what is simple minded? No one is denying that and we all know GOD is one but HE has the power to divide. Do you doubt HIS power? If you doubt HIS power than you are not a person of faith but a great pretender like a wolf in a sheep's cloth.

My answer:

I denied with evidences from my scriptures, which is better than a person that denied blindly without any evidences either from the prophet or from the scriptures.I have no doubt about HIS greatness.But, because He is so powerful, He doesn't have to be His creations.Putting him on such level is like downgrading your God.Islam is not downgrading God.Is there any problem that?. Did Jesus said that the statement he made was parable?.I don't see the word parable there...You add extra word...well that is Barney...tak heran..

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6)
My dear boy, don't you know about doubtful Thomas? There are people who would doubt and there are people who believe with faith. The influence of strong elders had made some sectin of the Jews to doubt Jesus and the result was his death by crucifiction. Muslim's after 600 years of Jesus death did not believe he was crucified because Mohammed gave his own version of the bible. To the Jews Mohammed too was not the prophet they had been waiting for and Mohammed could not convience them with his mambo jambo. What say you aout that? The reason you do not understand is when GOD descend to earth HE would not have the full power because HE had taken the form of mortal. But what can I say as Muslims were nt educated on this aspect of spirituality. They were only educated to fight in the cause of Allah and if they fail to do so would mean hellfire. Mohammed put fear in the hearts of his followers in order to fulfill his mission of religious politics. You are blinded ignorance of the real truth

My answer:
The Quranic version stated that Jesus was not crucified, to show that Allah is always with the faithful persons.Yes, some of the Jews followed Jesus but as a prophet(because Jews never accepted a person from the same 'ummah' will be God for them), but most of them rejected him and called him son of incest.When they tried to killed him, Allah ascended him to the sky to safe him from the Jews.And Allah always protect the prophets.And yes, like I say before, that the Jews mocked the prophets after Moses including Muhammad.You also have no evidences to say the Quranic version is wrong.And I have seen no problem with the version.

I am really sorry to see that your knowledge about Islam is nothing more than what you have said above.You repeated them over and over again.I have explained them over and over again.But I remind you la:

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." (Surah Al-Anfaal 8:61).

A short verse that explains everything. Islam is the religion that full of tolerancy.Need me to repeat?.

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7)
So, could I say in Aceh the 200,000 lives lost in Tsunami was the warth of GOD? Then they must have sinned badly to make Allah angry that he took 200,000 people at one go. But some angry god this Allah of yours. You have any better explanation for your point? I still say according to Muslims point of veiw Allah had failed and so he need to correct his failier and that is what being told by your Quran.

My answer:
It can be another reason too...Allah knows best.The disaster can occur as a reminder.See here:

"Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that ((Allah)) may give them a taste of some of their deeds: in order that they may turn back (from Evil)."(Surah Ar-Rum 30:41).

Any problems with that?
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8)
Now you say some part of the laws are invalid. So you do not respect Allah's law but believe what Mohammed had said about changing Allah's law? Which is which my boy? You are going on a turn around here and there commiting blasphemy against Allah. Our religion thought us that never live in a land where there is no Temple for GOD. So wherever Hindus are there has to be a Temple for GOD too. Anywahy what has that got to do with the issue at hand? Are you trying to wiggle your way out of this situation where y9ou are unable to debate? What else have you got now?

My answer:

Yes!. See this:

"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord: for thou art assuredly on the Right Way."(Surah Al-Hijr 22:67)

He sent same laws, but there are parts of the laws are renewed with the new laws. That is why you see every period got different way on worshipping God.Well...it is Allah's will to change what He wants:

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:106).

Once again, any problems with that?:@
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eastrun · Post time 9-3-2007 11:37 PM

9)
I worried because you got your facts wrong. Nowhere in the bible does it say Gabriel spoke to Jesus. Yes, Gabriel spoke to hsi mother Mary but not to Jesus because Jesus is far more superior to Gabriel and only Gabriel knows the truth about Jesus. You my ignorant friend know your facts before you pick the topic.

My answer:
Looks like you are trying to question why Allah created different situation for each prophet. He answered:

"Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:253)

Up to ALLAH to choose what He wants!!.
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10)
What add? Are you accusing me ot rewriting the Quran? You must be crazry to accuse me of such. So me what verse did I add otherwise you are doing the bluffology game here to escape from this debate. If you cannot continue say so and I would accept your defeat. Simple shot verse is meaningless on a particular stand point. You have to explain with facts of such verse or else its like jsut accept what I say without argument like what communist idology states. When I talk you listen or else you'll be shot. That is communist idiology and looks like Islam is similar to it.

My answer:
Then tell me, which verse in the Holy Quran said if the Pagans don't ask for asylum, then kill him.Stubborn.Already explained also not understand.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 9-3-2007 11:39 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 10-3-2007 07:57 AM

Reply #71 eastrun's post

That is why I asked you yesterday...your scriptures were presented thousands years before the Holy Quran.From there, you just can imagine how many parts of the scriptures have been distorted. Furthermore, your scriptures never made any convenant to build confidence that the scriptures will stay preserved. Then, why are you so worry about other scriptures, which your scriptures themselves never made any commentaries about the scriptures that you claimed are wrong. At least, in the Holy Quran got many prophecises that happened today.Therefore hard to say that it is a history book. Old man, you are the one that picked a small part of the Holy Quran, and then change the meaning to suit with what you have programmed in your mind.Even though, it is clearly what you are claimed are wrong, you still stick with them.Cukuplah tu, orang tua,bertaubatlah sebelum terlambat.

Copy the Code

Inilah kata cakap kosong.... Any doctorine be it the Bible, Quran or Vedas all can be authenticated by comparison and archeological evidence. Muslims keep saying the original Quran is with Allah which means there is no way of checking it's authenticity. May it's a way to escape any scrutiny. A very clever way to escape lies. Here you should read research article such as this by child. We are reminded here of the Vedic proverb 'SATYAM EVA JAYATE'-'TRUTH ALONE PREVAILS' .

The accuracy of the Vedic sciences, such as Sulbasutras, is evidencedin the book by Rajarama, 'The Politics of History'. It is aself-evident truth relating to matters, both mundane and spiritual. Its continuity throughout the ages, points to an organic culture thatsynchronizes with the natural laws of the universe. And here you should read about your Quran's authenticity and claims which puts Quran in a very akward situation.

When Mohammed had a vision, the Bukhari Hadiths record that strange things happened. He experienced a ringing in his ears vol.1:1;4:438, his heart beat rapidly vol.1:3, his face would turn red vol. 2 ch.16 (after no.610); vol.5:618; he breathed heavilyvol.6:508 p.476, he fell on the ground with both eyes open toward thesky vol.5:170;6:448, he sweat profusely vol.1:2;2:544;3:829, and seeand hear things no one else did vol.1:2,3 vol.4:458,461; vol.6:447.These would seem weird back then, but doctors recognize these as signs of an epileptic fit. Since the fits were unpredictable, after Mohammed抯 death fragments of the Qur抋n were written on palmleaves, rocks, and bones according to the Bukhari vol.6:509p.478. Thus there was no organized manuscript of the Qur抋n prior to his death. Some verses did not survive according to the vol.4:57,62,69,299. Many who had memorized the Qur抋n were killed, and Abu Bakr was worried that some parts of the Qur抋n would be lost. Bukhar vol.6:509 p.477-478. After the Qur抋n was gathered, it still needed "compiling" years later. At one time Mohammed compromised and said concerning the daughters of Allah in Sura 53:19 that "their intercession was to be hoped for." In other words, Mohammed said we should hope for the help of these three idols. Mohammed抯 followers were amazed that he said this. Mohammed later changed and said Satan had deceived him.

These verses were abrogated or taken out. It is interesting to read how Allah could have what are called "abrogated verses" in Suras 13:39; 16:101; 2:106. The meaning of the new verses is that the people being "unfair", for saying that Allah only had less-desirable daughters(and no sons), when they had sons. Remember, this is supposed to be a timeless book, written on a tablet [in Heaven]. Sura 85:20-22.

Qur抋n抯 Transmitted Reliability

Most Muslims believe the Qur抋n is an exact copy of a tablet of the Qur抋n [in Heaven] in Sura 85:20-22.But consider the following points.

1. It is strange that even in the temporary verses in the Qur抋n that Muslims agree Mohammed said were abrogated, are stored for all time in Heaven. They are still in the Qur抋n today.

2. Many Muslims are not aware that the Sahih Muslim Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur抋n today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today抯 Qur抋n.

3. 慤bai抯 early copies of the Qur抋n did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur抋n today.

4. 慉bdallah ibn Mas抲d was one ofthe four people Mohammed said to learn the Qur抋n from. Yet Al-Nurilists verses in Ibn Mas抲d抯 version that are not in the Qur抋n today.

5. Satan always throws something inwith a prophet抯 words according to Sura 22:52, but God has to cancelit out. This might be an explanation for why four different Muslimhistorical sources report that Sura 53:19-20 originally said theintercession (help) of four idol goddesses was to be hoped for.
6. 慤thman also made changes to standardize the Qur抋n, but that is the topic of the next part.

Now if the Bukhari Hadithsvol.1:62, vol.4:709, and vol.6:510 are reliable at all, one has to ask why this occurred; Muslims typically do not go around destroying copies of the Qur抋n.
Why did 慤thman have to burn other copies, unless the other copies were different?
Why did 慤thman need to standardize the Qur抋n, unless it needed standardizing?
Why did 慤thman threaten death to make Muslims use the "Uthmanized" Qur抋n?
Why did some Muslims reject 慤thman抯 text in favor of their own text of the Qur抋n?

There is a simple answer to these questions. 慤thman had to edit The Qur抋n because there was not just one text.

1. In contrast to this, 慤thman destroyed all but a few of the early Qur抋n manuscripts, so "his tracks are covered.

2. His tracks are not completely covered because of the manuscripts of Ubai and others. (See Bukhari vol.6:527 p.489 for Ubai being the best at reciting the Qur抋n, yet they leave some of what he recites.)

3. His tracks are not completely covered because of the words of 慉isha and some Shi抜te Muslims.

4. Many Sunni Muslims have never thought to ask, "is the Qur抋n they have the same as the original Qur抋n?

To many questions for Muslims to evaluate their standing on the authenticity of the Quran. Need I say more my child?

eastrun · Post time 10-3-2007 06:49 PM

Like I said before, I have no worry if your books contain many scientific facts, many great knowledges and many great medicinal facts.Because I believe that Allah has sent parts of His knowledge to the previous prophets.

"We did aforetime send apostles before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah. but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods."
(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:78)

That's why in each scripture, has thier own speciality.But, because the books existed thousands years before the existence, then I asked you, can you imagine, how many parts of the scriptures have been distorted?. Furthermore, with no promised from your own scriptures that the scriptures will stay preserve.Until now, you are not answering my question.Why?.
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2)
I also have no worry about the way Muhammad received the revelations.Because no problem need to be raised on that.Every prophet got thier own way on receiving revelations:

"Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:253)

No problem with that.It is Allah choice to give the revelations in different ways.Then why are you so worry with that?.
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3)
Regarding the three idols. See this:

"For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!.Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,And another, the third (goddess), Manat?" (Surah An-Najm 53:19-20)

The kafir of Mecca assumed this three idols that they have created as Allah's daughters. The verse above tried to explain, after Allah has shown them the Greatness of Him, why did they still assume the three idols which they created as His daughters?.

Read more in the SAME SURAH:

"These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!"(Surah an-najm 53:23)

Then how can you say that Muhammad has accepted the three idols?.

.
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3)
The renewing of verses, not only happens in the Holy Quran, but it also happened in the previous scriptures.

If you read the book of Genesis, the first book of Moses, you will find that that there was no law that say producing a son of incest is illegal. For example, in Genesis chapter 19:33-36..the sex scene between Lot and his daughters, Genesis chapter 38:8-9...sex between father in law with daughter in-law (Tamar and Yehuda)..

But in the Book of Leviticus, one of the Moses books, God stated new law that, you cannot commit incest. So, the laws have been added and changed. It happened because of different need in different period.

So, when Allah re-newing His laws in the Holy Quran, why are you so worry about that?.Is it because you are worried that most of your laws have been changed and re-newed?.

Furthermore...nowhere in the Holy Quran or in the previous books support that Allah has daughters as you claimed above!!
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4)
About the extra suras...can you show me the extra suras that you claimed WERE in the Holy Quran.If not, stop making such assumption.

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5)
What Uthman burnt were the scriptures that have different diallect with the original scripture.Because Muhammad came from Bani Quraisy, so he standardized all scriptures in one diallect.Is it illegal to standardize the scripture into one diallect?.And that is what you have seen in the Holy Quran today.

What ever it is, Allah promised:

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."(Surah Al-Hijr 15:9)

Your books got such promise?.Your books got a verse claiming that the Quran has been corrupted?.Just forget it, you won't never be able to fight Allah.

"Nay, shall man have (just) anything he hankers after?"(Surah An-Najm 53:24)

[ Last edited by eastrun at 10-3-2007 06:52 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 10-3-2007 09:46 PM

Reply #74 eastrun's post

Like I said before, I have no worry if
your books contain many scientific facts, many great knowledges and
many great medicinal facts.Because I believe that Allah has sent parts
of His knowledge to the previous prophets.
"We did aforetime send apostles before
thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and
some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for
any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah. but
when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and
justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on
Falsehoods."
(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:78)
That's why in each scripture, has thier own speciality.But,
because the books existed thousands years before the existence, then I
asked you, can you imagine, how many parts of the scriptures have been
distorted?. Furthermore, with no promised from your own scriptures that
the scriptures will stay preserve.Until now, you are not answering my
question.Why?.[code]
What perserve? You have not answered my above post on the authenticity of your Quran's original book. Why some of the collected versions were abrogated and why they are not in order. When yours is in question need you have to know about ours? Morever it's duty of the Rishis to perserve something divinely presented. Why would GOD need to promise to preserve HIS own divine messages when the responsibility should be of the Rishis. If according to the Quran GOD has to promise sounds very vauge and not so truthful. Was Allah afraid that his message might be discarded by the Arabs? Funny that you should ask me about that. Yu have 114 verses under a persons names which means either they brought the collection of verses or they invented on their own. Beats me!
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[code]2)
I also have no worry about the way Muhammad received the
revelations.Because no problem need to be raised on that.Every prophet
got thier own way on receiving revelations:
"Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others:
To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to
Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with
the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would
not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them,
but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If
Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah
Fulfilleth His plan."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:253)
No problem with that.It is Allah choice to give the revelations in different ways.Then why are you so worry with that?.

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I'm not worried but it's you who have to worry because too many contradiction and doubtful verses. So, it was Allah who will that they fight among themselves? What GOD would want such?
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3)
Regarding the three idols. See this:
"For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the
Greatest!.Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,And another, the third (goddess),
Manat?" (Surah An-Najm 53:19-20)
The kafir of Mecca assumed this three idols that they have created as
Allah's daughters. The verse above tried to explain, after Allah has
shown them the Greatness of Him, why did they still assume the three
idols which they created as His daughters? Read more in the SAME SURAH:
"These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your
fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They
follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even
though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!"(Surah an-najm 53:23)
Then how can you say that Muhammad has accepted the three idols?.

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Why would Allah needed to confirm when it was not from him? Which means in the first place there was and so he need to reaffirm that no such. Or was it written and than found it was not appropriate and than abrogate. Huh! Whatever let you believe so.

.
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3)
The renewing of verses, not only happens in the Holy Quran, but it also happened in the previous scriptures.
If you read the book of Genesis, the first book of Moses, you will
find that that there was no law that say producing a son of incest is
illegal. For example, in Genesis chapter 19:33-36..the sex scene
between Lot and his daughters, Genesis chapter 38:8-9...sex between
father in law with daughter in-law (Tamar and Yehuda)..
But in the Book of Leviticus, one of the Moses books, God stated new
law that, you cannot commit incest. So, the laws have been added and
changed. It happened because of different need in different period.
So, when Allah re-newing His laws in the Holy Quran, why are you so
worry about that?.Is it because you are worried that most of your laws
have been changed and re-newed?.
Furthermore...nowhere in the Holy Quran or in the previous books support that Allah has daughters as you claimed above!!

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So, now you agree that there would be changes from time to time? When I said that of our scriptures Muslims make fun by saying how could GOD's law have changes and now for Islam and Muslims it's ok to have changes? That is the problem here my friend. When it suits Muslims everything can be accepted but when it does not suit there is no go. From the beginning I have said changes had to take place from time to time. You cannot live with age old laws that does not cover the present time and period. But bigots of Islam wish to live in the 7th century laws but agree that changes had taken place before. Pathetic!
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4)
About the extra suras...can you show me the extra suras that you
claimed WERE in the Holy Quran.If not, stop making such assumption.

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No assumption but that were facts from scholars of Islam. Go and do your own research. I have made a point and it is up to you to proof to me that I'm wrong not the otherway round.

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5)
What Uthman burnt were the scriptures that have different diallect with
the original scripture.Because Muhammad came from Bani Quraisy, so he
standardized all scriptures in one diallect.Is it illegal to
standardize the scripture into one diallect?.And that is what you have
seen in the Holy Quran today.
What ever it is, Allah promised:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."(Surah Al-Hijr 15:9)
Your books got such promise?.Your books got a verse claiming that the
Quran has been corrupted?.Just forget it, you won't never be able to
fight Allah.
"Nay, shall man have (just) anything he hankers after?"(Surah An-Najm 53:24)

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What makes you sure of that? Were you there when such discussion took place? I don't get it. You always quote something written by man saying it was from GOD ["We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."(Surah Al-Hijr 15:9)] This is no divine word but word of man and that must be of Uthman. In what way did your Allah guarded the Quran, can you please explain. Did he send down an angel or jin to keep guarding the Quran for thousands of years? Need clear explanation.

[ Last edited by barney50 at 10-3-2007 09:49 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 11-3-2007 03:41 PM

1)
I'm not worried but it's you who have to worry because too many contradiction and doubtful verses. So, it was Allah who will that they fight among themselves? What GOD would want such?

My answer:

Show me the contradict verses, don't just keep saying kosong.You are not a Muslim, of course you are doubt with my scripture.And it is normal for a ignorant old man like you. I repeat, IT IS NORMAL.

"Even so do We let it creep into the hearts of the sinners -That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of the ancients have passed away."
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:12~13)

Now I am asking...we look like FIGHTING here right?. Why?. Because of the different faith.So, what is your problem with the quoted verse?. Is it when we mention the word FIGHTING, you will think about KILLING EACH OTHER, KILLING EACH OTHER, KILLING EACH OTHER?.Well...that's what you raised, from the 1st time I dedate with you until now

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2)
Why would Allah needed to confirm when it was not from him? Which means in the first place there was and so he need to reaffirm that no such. Or was it written and than found it was not appropriate and than abrogate. Huh! Whatever let you believe so

My answer:
Where in the verse said Allah confirmed the three idols were His daughters?.Nowhere...read the verse I quoted in the previous post..or read the whole Quran, you won;t find any verse confirming that.

When Allah abrogate a verse, He will put the original verse in the same Book, and then He will put the new verse also in one Book, so that we can see, which law/ verse has been abrogated. For example, at first there is no law saying that consume khamar (intoxicant) or something that can make your mind befogged is illegal....:

"O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again." (Surah An-Nisa 4:43)

Then, as the time goes...intoxicant caused many problems and Allah sent the new law to renew the previous law:

"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper." (Surah Al-Maaidah 5:90)

So, now tell me, which verse (original verse) about the three idols that you claimed has been abrogated by Allah?.

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3)
So, now you agree that there would be changes from time to time? When I said that of our scriptures Muslims make fun by saying how could GOD's law have changes and now for Islam and Muslims it's ok to have changes? That is the problem here my friend. When it suits Muslims everything can be accepted but when it does not suit there is no go. From the beginning I have said changes had to take place from time to time. You cannot live with age old laws that does not cover the present time and period. But bigots of Islam wish to live in the 7th century laws but agree that changes had taken place before. Pathetic!

My answer:
You see...when Allah renewed and re-added the laws, He sent down a prophet and as well as a scripture as reference. Now I am asking...is there any prophets or any scriptures that came after Muhammad and the Holy Quran to renew and re-add the laws that already in the Holy Quran?. Answer me...

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4)
No assumption but that were facts from scholars of Islam. Go and do your own research. I have made a point and it is up to you to proof to me that I'm wrong not the otherway round.

My answer:
Then, show me the suras, if it was not an assumption.I don;t think it was from the Muslim scholars..it is from you....

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5)
What makes you sure of that? Were you there when such discussion took place? I don't get it. You always quote something written by man saying it was from GOD ["We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."(Surah Al-Hijr 15:9)] This is no divine word but word of man and that must be of Uthman. In what way did your Allah guarded the Quran, can you please explain. Did he send down an angel or jin to keep guarding the Quran for thousands of years? Need clear explanation

My answer:
Can you prove to me that is not a divine word?.Can you prove that is Uthman's word?.How Allah guarded the Quran...actually, you yourself had revealed the way.
When I ask you to show me the extra suras you claimed, then you failed...so that's one prove that the Suras are never existed..telling that the Holy Quran is as same as before. When I asked you..show me anywhere in your Holy Books saying that the Quran has been distorted and you failed, that is another prove.

When I asked you..to produce a sura like the Holy Quran's...which Allah also challenged in the 10th Sura(Yunus) and 2nd Sura (Al-Baqarah), you failed, and comes another prove.

I wonder..really wonder...why are you acting like this...even though your books, your rishis and God, never instructed you to do so. I always asking you..are you against your own belief?.And..that is another prove.

Another prove...when you asked me questions, Alhamdulillah, Quran got the answer...And that is another prove...

And lastly, Allah has made the Holy Book easy to be memorized by Muslims.That's why you can see those tahfizs. They are able to memorize

whole book..but it is no use for a person like you.Confirming this:

"And indeed We have made the Quran easy to memorize(for Muslims and those who believe): then is there any that will remember? (for the ignorants)" (Surah Al-Qamar 54:17)

[ Last edited by eastrun at 11-3-2007 03:47 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 11-3-2007 07:22 PM

Reply #76 eastrun's post

Show me the contradict verses, don't just keep saying kosong.You are
not a Muslim, of course you are doubt with my scripture.And it is
normal for a ignorant old man like you. I repeat, IT IS NORMAL.
"Even so do We let it creep into the hearts of the
sinners -That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of
the ancients have passed away."
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:12~13)
Now I am asking...we look like FIGHTING here right?. Why?. Because of
the different faith.So, what is your problem with the quoted verse?. Is
it when we mention the word FIGHTING, you will think about KILLING EACH
OTHER, KILLING EACH OTHER, KILLING EACH OTHER?.Well...that's what you
raised, from the 1st time I dedate with you until now

Copy the Code

I need not have to show here but it's better for you to check. All scriptures have flaws and that includes yours and mine too. So arguing over it is not going to do any good. If you are smart you'd know how to weigh them instead of speaking without reasoning. Those who fight over religious difference are stupid ignorant fools who are repeating what the founders had done to destroy cultures of people and their and nations centuries ago. We are here to debate on issues that needs to be discussed in order to have a better understanding. Not as what you are thinking. I raised because there was fighting and killing among people of the same race. Do you deny no Meccans were killed in the early days of Islam? Can you swear that there was no fighting among the tibes of Arabia before Islam was established? Do you deny that when Muslim warriors invaded other nations they did not commit atrocities? May be you turned a deaf ear but the truth remains truth no matter what Islamic scholars had written in order to paint a becutiful picture of Islam.

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Where in the verse said Allah confirmed the three idols were His
daughters?.Nowhere...read the verse I quoted in the previous post..or
read the whole Quran, you won;t find any verse confirming that.
When Allah abrogate a verse, He will put the original verse in the same
Book, and then He will put the new verse also in one Book, so that we
can see, which law/ verse has been abrogated. For example, at first
there is no law saying that consume khamar (intoxicant) or something
that can make your mind befogged is illegal....:
"O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,-
nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the
road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a
journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been
in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves
clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah
doth blot out sins and forgive again and again." (Surah An-Nisa 4:43)
Then, as the time goes...intoxicant caused many problems and Allah sent the new law to renew the previous law:
"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper." (Surah Al-Maaidah 5:90)
So, now tell me, which verse (original verse) about the three idols that you claimed has been abrogated by Allah?.

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All that had been abrogated because after the death of Mohammed they systematically removed some of them by saying they were not authenticated version. The above verse is not proof of what was originally stated. Anyway the above verse may not be what the actual message would have been.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You see...when Allah renewed and re-added the laws, He sent down a
prophet and as well as a scripture as reference. Now I am asking...is
there any prophets or any scriptures that came after Muhammad and the
Holy Quran to renew and re-add the laws that already in the Holy
Quran?. Answer me..

Copy the Code

Many such scriptures had been given to us by our prophets so such new messages supercedes what Mohammed had said.

There are no permanent and unchanging rules and regulations governing the society. They are always subject to change to serve the requirements of thesociety. That is why the Upanishads say: Tamaso ma jyotirgamaya (Let usgo from darkness to light). The search of science for truth does notcontradict Hindu religion or Hindu philosophy at all. That is why noGalileos have been imprisoned and no heretics have been burnt on thestake in India.

.

barney50 · Post time 11-3-2007 07:26 PM

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Then, show me the suras, if it was not an assumption.I don;t think it was from the Muslim scholars..it is from you...

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You keep on telling me to show but looks like you did not take the initiative to study them. If I show you, you'll say it's nonsense and would say they are from unreliable source. So, it's better for you to look it up.

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Can you prove to me that is not a divine word?.Can you prove that is Uthman's word?.How Allah guarded the Quran...actually, you yourself had revealed the way.
When I ask you to show me the extra suras you claimed, then you failed...so that's one prove that the Suras are never existed..telling that the Holy Quran is as same as before. When I asked you..show me anywhere in your Holy Books saying that the Quran has been distorted and you failed, that is another prove.

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Use your comon sense. When the said sutras were destroyed by Uthman how could one produce as evidence. Muslims of that time were very clever in destroying evidence to escape the truth. It's obvious in the present century when Talibans destroyed the Bayamin Buddha statue. That is because they do not want the future generations to know of such existence. This is the tactic of Arab Muslims. Destroy every historical evidence and no one will know of their existence and the followers would only remember Islam. The proof of distortin of the Quran is very obvious from other source which you would claim are from enemies of Islam. Tail you win and head I lose. That's the truth about Muslims like you.

When I asked you..to produce a sura like the Holy Quran's...which Allah also challenged in the 10th Sura(Yunus) and 2nd Sura (Al-Baqarah), you failed, and comes another prove.
I wonder..really wonder...why are you acting like this...even though your books, your rishis and God, never instructed you to do so. I always asking you..are you against your own belief?.And..that is another prove.
Another prove...when you asked me questions, Alhamdulillah, Quran got the answer...And that is another prove...
And lastly, Allah has made the Holy Book easy to be memorized by Muslims.That's why you can see those tahfizs. They are able to memorize whole book..but it is no use for a person like you.Confirming this:
"And indeed We have made the Quran easy to memorize(for Muslims and those who believe): then is there any that will remember? (for the ignorants)" (Surah Al-Qamar 54:17)

Copy the Code

Does your Allah doubt his own message that he needs a mortal to take a challenge to reproduce? No where in the scriptures did GOD ask for such as to challenge mortals to reproduce HIS message. This must be work of man who feared someone else would produce a book like that and so put a challenge. GOD would not challenge because HE knows if man tried to do that would only bring his own self destruction. You need experience and knowledge in life to understand all this.

eastrun · Post time 12-3-2007 09:42 PM

1)
I need not have to show here but it's better for you to check. All scriptures have flaws and that includes yours and mine too. So arguing over it is not going to do any good. If you are smart you'd know how to weigh them instead of speaking without reasoning. Those who fight over religious difference are stupid ignorant fools who are repeating what the founders had done to destroy cultures of people and their and nations centuries ago. We are here to debate on issues that needs to be discussed in order to have a better understanding. Not as what you are thinking. I raised because there was fighting and killing among people of the same race. Do you deny no Meccans were killed in the early days of Islam? Can you swear that there was no fighting among the tibes of Arabia before Islam was established? Do you deny that when Muslim warriors invaded other nations they did not commit atrocities? May be you turned a deaf ear but the truth remains truth no matter what Islamic scholars had written in order to paint a becutiful picture of Islam

My answer:
Very nice...you confessed that your scriptures got flaws..but sorry, it is not in my scripture.My scripture very straight to the point. To explain something, Allah doesn't need to produce a long verse.That's why you can see that there is now long verses I pasted here when I answered your questions. When I debate with you, I brought together with evidences, with verses from my scripture...JUST TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ALLAH,ISLAM,AND MUHAMMAD ARE NOT LIKE WHAT YOU THOUGHT.And I wonder, you are so stubborn and still not able to understand, even the explanations given!!!!Whereas you, came here, assumed this and that, accused this and that, with no reasons,evidences and verses from your scriptures. And yet, you want people to understand you.

People killing before the existence of Islam...I don;t care about that.That's thier problems, but when the Islam existed no such law asked you to kill people BLINDLY. For the present situation, nobody knows whether the terrorists are Muslims or Jews or people from other religions!!. You also cannot be sure with that...Maybe they are Hindus..who knows. Because they are wearing masks!!

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2)
All that had been abrogated because after the death of Mohammed they systematically removed some of them by saying they were not authenticated version. The above verse is not proof of what was originally stated. Anyway the above verse may not be what the actual message would have been

My answer:
Then what about the abrogated laws regarding the status of sons of incest in the Bible?...i meant in the Old testament?.I told you that Allah not only using the abrogating method during Muhammad period..He used it long before Muhammad.That's why I asked you to show to me the abrogated verse.YOU FAILED.So, stop accusing my prophet this and that, with weighless assumption:

"See what similes they strike for thee (Muhammad): but they have gone astray, and never can they find a way"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:48)

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3)
Many such scriptures had been given to us by our prophets so such new messages supercedes what Mohammed had said.

There are no permanent and unchanging rules and regulations governing the society. They are always subject to change to serve the requirements of thesociety. That is why the Upanishads say: Tamaso ma jyotirgamaya (Let usgo from darkness to light). The search of science for truth does notcontradict Hindu religion or Hindu philosophy at all. That is why noGalileos have been imprisoned and no heretics have been burnt on thestake in India.

My answer:
I told you...I have no worry when you claimed that the Vedas contains medicinal and scientific knowledges.Because, Allah sent parts of His knowledge. AND, DID I SAY WHEN ALLAH SENT A PROPHET, HE WILL RENEW THE WHOLE LAWS?.I never said that. That's why, sometimes you can see the similarity of the scriptures. But the obvious difference is, what is in the latest scripture is not in the previous scripture..and what is in the previous scripture, is in the latest scripture..Because Allah sent down His knowledges 'sedikit demi sedikit' so that human can adapt with the laws He sent down.I wonder...how can a thousand years old books before Islam can supercede Quran. Do you know what is the meaning of supercede?...Menggantikan yang lama...So, between your scriptures and mine, which one is YANG LAMA?

[ Last edited by eastrun at 12-3-2007 10:08 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 12-3-2007 10:06 PM

1)
You keep on telling me to show but looks like you did not take the initiative to study them. If I show you, you'll say it's nonsense and would say they are from unreliable source. So, it's better for you to look it up.

My answer:

Looks like Barney failed to prove what he claimed..What for I am searching something that not exist..Clearly not existed.That's why you(the one who raised the issue) FAILED to show me the SURAS.

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2)
Use your comon sense. When the said sutras were destroyed by Uthman how could one produce as evidence. Muslims of that time were very clever in destroying evidence to escape the truth. It's obvious in the present century when Talibans destroyed the Bayamin Buddha statue. That is because they do not want the future generations to know of such existence. This is the tactic of Arab Muslims. Destroy every historical evidence and no one will know of their existence and the followers would only remember Islam. The proof of distortin of the Quran is very obvious from other source which you would claim are from enemies of Islam. Tail you win and head I lose. That's the truth about Muslims like you.

My answer:
Then proved to me with evidences that Uthman does destroyed the Surahs..Making an assumption,will gain you nothing.Like I said before, I also can put thousands of assumptions and accusitions upon your religion, but it is wasting my time when it is without evidence. But I wonder that you are happy in deceiving people without evidences.

. Islam did not asked the Muslims to destroy the temple or statue...I show you the verse:

"(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will)." (Surah Al-Hajj 22:40)

What the Taliban do, has nothing to do with Islam.

Sorry..no distortion in Quran..but the enemies make it looks it has been distorted, by twisting the meaning and the fact...Which..you happily follow them...

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5)
Does your Allah doubt his own message that he needs a mortal to take a challenge to reproduce? No where in the scriptures did GOD ask for such as to challenge mortals to reproduce HIS message. This must be work of man who feared someone else would produce a book like that and so put a challenge. GOD would not challenge because HE knows if man tried to do that would only bring his own self destruction. You need experience and knowledge in life to understand all this.

My answer:
The challenge is as a 'perli' for the ignorant persons like you..who tried to be like Him, tried to have and challenge His knowledge and at the end of the day..you fail to do so. He knows that you won;t be able to challenge Him, but to make you wake up and realize that you will fail, then He challenge you to produce same Sura like His. At least you realized now that you are His creation and won't be able to produce what He produced. Alhamdulillah.

I repeat:

"Those who dispute about the signs of Allah without any authority bestowed on them,- there is nothing in their breasts but (the quest of) greatness, which they shall never attain to: seek refuge, then, in Allah. It is He Who hears and sees (all things)." (Surah Al-Mu'min 40:56)

"We have not sent thee ( Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not."
(Surah Saba 34:28)

See you!!!

.InsyaAllah!!

[ Last edited by eastrun at 12-3-2007 10:11 PM ]