KENNKID This user has been deleted
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If Jesus is God one would expect him to admit he is good in the sense that God is good, meaning perfect. However when we read the Bible we see that Jesus denies being good in the sense that God is good which is perfect. Here are the passages:
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So take note that the man calls Jesus good, Jesus tells the man there is non good but God. Obviously Jesus referred to God as someone else, which also proves Jesus isn抰 God. However the main importance of the passages is that Jesus denies being Good in the way God is good, which is to be perfect. |
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Originally posted by KENNKID at 17-7-2006 07:15 AM
If Jesus is God one would expect him to admit he is good in the sense that God is good, meaning perfect. However when we read the Bible we see that Jesus denies being good in the sense that God is ...
Jesus was not denying that He is good. Jesus was rebuking the man for calling Him good, as He knew the man was only addressing Him as a man.
When you read, you should not be only reading 2 verses. You'll need to read the whole portion of the story in order to get the background of the story.
First, noticee how the man addressed Jesus: He called Jesus Good Master - even when he does not acknowledge Jesus as his master in his heart. If he acknowledge Jesus as his master, he would have followed what Jesus told him to do, and followed him. But he did not. This is the evidence that he did not acknowledge Jesus as his master and Lord.
Jesus already knew the man's heart and mind . He knew that the man does not, and would not acknowledge Him as God. In other words, Jesus was saying this: If only God is good.. and if you do not consider me as Lord.. but you consider Me only a man.. why do you call me good? He wasn't denying divinity, he was rebuking the man.
Matthew 19:16-23
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Well.. you may not agree.. i'm perfectly fine with that.. but as you have heard my explanation of these verses - i'd still like to hear from eastrun on his four conclusions of the verses in my earlier post... (i just want to know what a non-Christian's interpretation is.. ) |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 17-7-2006 12:27 AM
hm...i'm curious to know: what are your conclusions of the verses in my post # 71?
a) what is your conclusion from Jesus's words to Satan (1)
b) what is your conclusion for Jesus's me in (2 ...
My sister...the reason I am not making any commentaries on those verses because not related at all with what I have questioned you.
MY Question:
Give me a verse which shows that Jesus CONFESSED  am GOD and WORSHIP me. Until now, you give me this and that and yet you failed. I have proved to you that Jesus he himself never asked you to worship him and he never confessed that he is God. So...please don't go faraway because it will make you prone to change the topic.:pray:
I repeat "He never cofessed that he himself as Lord"
"Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'" (Surah Al - Maidah 5:110)
[ Last edited by eastrun at 17-7-2006 06:53 PM ] |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 17-7-2006 05:57 PM
Jesus was not denying that He is good. Jesus was rebuking the man for calling Him good, as He knew the man was only addressing Him as a man.
When you read, you should not be only reading 2 v ...
This also not a prove and confession from Jesus that he is God..what he said are like those prophets that came before him and like Muhammad. What Jesus said also prove that he confessed that only God is great and good, not himself. |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 17-7-2006 12:42 AM
well.. maybe.
Your conclusions are drawn intellectually.. based on conclusions you draw from the Bible and the Quran. My conclusions are drawn spiritually.. based on the Bible and the experi ...
Besides that, have to use your brain to think too.That is the most precious thing that God has given to us. Your soul can be conducted using your brain. If you depend to your soul alone, that means you are forbidding your brain from helping you. You should use both. The Spirit of Truth is Muhammad....
"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"(Surah As-Shaff 61:6)
[ Last edited by eastrun at 17-7-2006 06:51 PM ] |
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You have not answered my questions. Those are the incidences in the Bible where Jesus claimed that He is God...
When Satan was tempting Jesus - why did Jesus tell satan that he shalt not tempt God?
why did Jesus claim that He existed before Abraham?
why did Jesus claim that He is King David's Lord?
why did Jesus say the Pharisees worshipped Him as God when they clearly only worshipped God in heaven?
Aren't these incidents where Jesus claimed that He is God?
If you think they are not. then tell me why and how, and what the verses mean, in your interpretation.
p/s: i did use my brain. my brain tells me that these verses cannot mean anything other than Jesus saying that He is God.
1) look, if satan tempts you.. you don't tell him that he shalt not tempt God.. unless you are God youself. (and even if you do and use God's name in vain, satan certainly knows.. and being satan, he will surely say something like.. "Don't crap.. you are not God.." But in this case, satan never did that to Jesus..
2) no one on earth that lived after Abraham can claim to have seen Abraham. (you would be lying if you say that). Yet Jesus said He did.
3) Jesus lived after King David's time.... and just like Abraham, King David has not met Jesus. how is it that King David called Jesus Lord, before even Jesus was born?
4) when people only worship God in heaven- you don't say that people worship you.. but Jesus said that of the Pharisees.. that they worship Him..
my brain tells me there is no other interpretation for these verses.. unless Jesus is God..
[ Last edited by sparrow at 18-7-2006 04:56 PM ] |
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POPOY This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by sparrow at 17-7-2006 07:43 PM
You have not answered my questions. Those are the incidences in the Bible where Jesus claimed that He is God...
When Satan was tempting Jesus - why did Jesus tell satan that he shalt not tempt ...
Tapi bible sudah banyak kali dirombak2 - jadi how to trust bible? bible asal dalam basa apa? bahasa inggeris? Bible saper yg tulis? banyak penulis kan? So, mcm mana nak percaya? Kalau Jesus tu tuhan mengapa dia perlu bertopengkan manusia? Tak perlu... yg perlu yakin yg tuhan tu ada, mcm mana Nabi Musa yakin, mamacm mana nabi Ibrahim yakin, macam mana nabi Isa atau Jesus yakin, macam mana nabi Muhammad yakin. Tak perlu topeng2 tak perlu jadi manusia jadian . kalau dia boleh jadi manusia jadian, maka sama la dgn ugama hindu - tuhan boleh jadi harimau jadian, gajah jadian, lembu jadian. Begitulah bagaimana fikiran manusia itu diuji. tak jauh akidah kristen dgn akidah manujsia zaman purba yg menganuti animisme. |
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Originally posted by POPOY at 7/17/06 10:05 PM
Tapi bible sudah banyak kali dirombak2 - jadi how to trust bible? bible asal dalam basa apa? bahasa inggeris? Bible saper yg tulis? banyak penulis kan? So, mcm mana nak percaya? Kalau Jesus tu ...
your whole argument is based on your belief that the present day bible isn't authentic, which obviously not everybody believes. |
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POPOY This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 18-7-2006 02:26 PM
your whole argument is based on your belief that the present day bible isn't authentic, which obviously not everybody believes.
Memang. tepat. kalo asli mana yg asal? suruh dia org tunjuk kat aku |
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POPOY,
THE TWELVE 揟RADITIONAL |
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Originally posted by POPOY at 7/17/06 10:28 PM
Memang. tepat. kalo asli mana yg asal? suruh dia org tunjuk kat aku
I think that's what he's trying to do, showing how those verses make sense. if you have a different idea, why not prove him wrong? in any argument, both sides must have a common ground. and when it comes to inter-religious debate, the common ground, the very basic should be logic, not the teaching of either religion.
for example, say a believer of Christianity, Mr. Christian is trying to prove that one of the verses from his book makes sense.
a believer of Islam, Mr. Muslim cannot just say that any argument made by Mr. Christian is not true simply because Islam teaches that.
Mr. Muslim has to prove that the verse Mr. Christian brings up doesn't make sense.
so, the common ground, the yardstick, the judge, is logic, that tells us which makes sense which doesn't. not the teaching of Islam, because Mr. Christian doesn't believe in that too, as much as Mr. Muslim doesn't believe in Christianity.
i hope that's understood. 
[ Last edited by BeanDiesel at 17-7-2006 11:05 PM ] |
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POPOY This user has been deleted
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[quote]Originally posted by barney50 at 18-7-2006 02:54 PM
POPOY,
THE TWELVE 揟RADITIONAL |
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POPOY,
I know you'll speak the same crap here. It does not matter what you think because there are more intelligent people than you out there who think oitherwise. It is a fairytale so you can do nothing about it. What the koran contains is the fairytale of the Jewish Tora and the Bible. This fairytale has been carried forward for generatins after genarations till a book was compiled. Middle east being a desert country had no other entertainment during the night so these old fellows would sit around fire and tell tales of this and that. That was how fairytales were told those days. The bushmen of the Kalahari desert were good story tellers too. May they too have a story like what Mohamed told his people. |
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POPOY This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by barney50 at 18-7-2006 04:12 PM
POPOY,
I know you'll speak the same crap here. It does not matter what you think because there are more intelligent people than you out there who think oitherwise. It is a fairytale so you can d ...
kahkahkah  u r a real joker |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 17-7-2006 07:43 PM
You have not answered my questions. Those are the incidences in the Bible where Jesus claimed that He is God...
When Satan was tempting Jesus - why did Jesus tell satan that he shalt not tempt ...
You are the who has not answered my questions. When Jesus never confessed that he is God, you cannot say he is God. Jesus said like that to Satan not because he is God, but he is telling, if you get angry with me, that means you get angry to God too, because Jesus is God's prophet. As you know, God will get angry to those who against He and His prophets. You can only say Jesus is God if Jesus said to Satan "Don't get angry to me, your Lord". But he didn't said that.
Before Abraham, JESUS already existed?Why only before Abraham?Is Abraham the first human created by God?., and who knows that is not the word of Jesus.Because if Jesus is genuine in saying such words, he should not ran away when the Pharisees wanted to stone him.But, as usual, in that verse, Jesus never claimed that he is God, so he is not.
When David called him Lord and yet Jesus never confessed that he is God, so what is that meant?. The verse is not answering my question, because doesn't show that Jesus made the confession about that.
:pray: |
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Originally posted by eastrun at 18-7-2006 06:15 PM
You can only say Jesus is God if Jesus said to Satan "Don't get angry to me, your Lord".
That's exactly what Jesus said: Jesus said.. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.. Who was satan tempting? Jesus. So who does 'the Lord thy God' refers to? Jesus. In other words, He was saying, Thou shalt not tempt Jesus. . (if you want to make a statement based on certain "specific" words - notice that Jesus never made an IF statement either.. )
Originally posted by eastrun at 18-7-2006 06:15 PM
Before Abraham, JESUS already existed?Why only before Abraham?
Jesus never said "only". Jesus never said He exists only before Abraham. Jesus said He already exists before Abraham.. (again if you are looking for specific words.. He didn't say "only - so that does not mean He only exists before Abraham.
And notice also that He used a present tense..
He didn't say use the words "I was".. He said.. before Abraham was, I AM. His choice of words shows two meanings: One is that, He is emphasizing on a continuous presence. When you use a present tense in past event - it denotes a continuous presence. He is saying that He continuously exists..
Not only that.. when He did that, He is also claiming Name "I AM".. which God used when He spoke to Moses in the burning bush for Himself - "I AM THAT I AM"..
Because if Jesus is genuine in saying such words..
i like this one. what is this supposed to mean? That Jesus is lying? So.. supposedly in your belief.. suppose IF (as you claim) that Jesus is a prophet.. uhm.. does this mean your prophet is lying?
You missed the point. The question why and how David call Jesus Lord. This goes to show that David, who lived many generations before Jesus, knew Jesus.. and called Him Lord. How does this happen if Jesus is not God? How would David know Jesus who came into the world so many generations after Him? And why did David call Him Lord if Jesus is not the Lord?
By the way, here's another one:
Jesus said in Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
Notice the words.. Jesus not only said that He exists from the beginning to the end.. He says: He IS the beginning and the end.. isn't that what God is? Is there anyone, or anything else who IS the beginning and the end apart from God?
And also, his disciples call Him God, and He did not rebuke them. Notice that Thomas called Him Lord and God. And Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling Him God.
John 20:26-29
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
(I think I know what your argument will be - Thomas made that exclaimation in a way like a lot of people do today - "My God!" well.. if you say that, then does it mean that.. Jesus approves of Thomas using God's name in vain? In other words, you are saying that Jesus approves of Thomas swearing in God's name? That's a sin, you know?
And instead of rebuking Thomas, he actually said this in response : Blessed are those who believe.. (believe what? believe in Him as Lord and God)
[ Last edited by sparrow at 18-7-2006 10:06 PM ] |
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Give me a verse which shows that Jesus CONFESSED :I am GOD and WORSHIP me.
"I am GOD and WORSHIP me.".. What an ARROGANT and PROUD statement! This statement sounds so arrogant and proud! Jesus is NOT proud and arrogant. And arrogance and pride is sin. Hence, this is not something God would say.. God does not sin.. and therefore He would not speak in such arrogrance and pride. In fact, if you consider it, this statement of yours sounds like something that satan would say, rather than what God would say. This is not what Jesus would do. If you look at how He came, an how He walked His life on earth.. Jesus is NOT proud and arrogant.. but instead He came in humbleness and meekness. Though it is true that He is God - it is not His nature to make such arrogant statements.
And God does not compel or force anyone to worship Him - forcing man to worship Him is not the nature of our Christian God. He wants us to worship Him willingly. Even when you look at what God said in the Old Testament -though He said, is I am the Lord Thy God.. and notice this is when He spoke directly from Heaven, when He gave the ten commandments. And even then, God did NOT say.. "Worship Me." God only told the people that they shalt not have other gods.. He did not compel or force people to worship Him.
Also - there's something you have to understand: while Jesus is God - He is not God - the Father. He is the God - the Son.
If Jesus said.. 揑 am God |
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Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 18-7-2006 02:54 PM
I think that's what he's trying to do, showing how those verses make sense. if you have a different idea, why not prove him wrong? in any argument, both sides must have a common ground. and whe ...
Last edited by BeanDiesel at 17-7-2006 11:05 PM
Thanks for the sound reasoning. Saved me a lot of trouble phrasing that here..
Off topic though: Talking about whether things makes sense.. i notice there's something about your post that doesn't make sense.. how did you manage to edit your post before you even posted it? :stp: |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 7/18/06 03:24 AM
Thanks for the sound reasoning. Saved me a lot of trouble phrasing that here..
Off topic though: Talking about whether things makes sense.. i notice there's something about your post that doe ...
 ff:
when i posted it there was a space-time continuum distortion occured in my room.  jk. i've been watching too much star trek lately.
ok here's a possible explanation.
this timestamp, "Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 18-7-2006 02:54 PM" was recorded by the server as the exact time the post was originally posted. since my timezone is US Pacific, the time of original post would appear to me as 7/17/06 10:54 PM, and to you as 18-7-2006 02:54 PM, 16-hr difference. that timestamp is translated based on your choice of timezone.
when i edited the post, this timestamp "[ Last edited by BeanDiesel at 17-7-2006 11:05 PM ] " copied my local time. and it was saved as a regular text, that won't be translated when you viewed it, thus the paradox. i am quite sure that it was indeed saved as a text, as if I wrote it down myself in the message body, because, whenever I forgot to close the bold or italic etc command after editing a post, the timestamp will be affected like the body texts.
so, that's the logical explanation, i'm not sure about the real truth. |
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Post time 17-7-2006 07:15 AM
Author
