Matthew 5:20

Originally posted by sparrow at 21-7-2006 09:07 PM


Well, i don't see the need to edit the post further. Your question was this: when people bowed to Him was actually they are worshipping the Father or Holy Spirit incarnated in him?

well.. pu ...

GOD=Truine(F + S + HS). Son was elected to be worshipped.
The argument is GOD has been decomposed for some reason. And each composition is named.
So, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There must be purpose(s) why this is decomposed?
Then, there must also be some kind of bonding to make the components stay tight to form GOD?

In all intents and purposes, I think the father exist uncreated and the rests were created.
Of course you don't expect Father to work. Only the Son seems so actively supervising the work, of who?

Just for argument sake!

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 23-7-2006 12:52 PM


well..  in one of your posts.. you claimed that you formed your conclusions based on the Bible AND the Qur'an that Jesus is not God.
what i'm just trying to show you here is that, that your co ...

The Revelation is God's words not Jesus's. Every word in the Revelation. Because God is the one who gave Jesus those words (Revelation 1:1)...so, when Jesus uttered the words, they are God's not Jesus's. Meaning that when Jesus said I am Alpha and Omega,it is not his word, but it is God's words...God put His words in Jesus mouth. The conclusion is Jesus is not the Alpha and the Omega.Jesus didn't claimed that.

John is his prophet?..then who is Mark, Matthew, Luke and John?.My Christian friend from Sarawak claimed they are also prophets..You said got only two prophets...James and John...:p.Who said the wrong thing?

Son of Man?...of course...he is son of Mary(a human) that is why he was called as son of Man..If a MAN brought down the God's words, we will call him prophet.. or peacemaker and that is what Jesus is. Look at Matthew 5:9

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. "

Every prophet is assumed as God's son. Son in this contact is prophet. If you assumed that Jesus is the only begotten son(John 3:16), then you are completely wrong.Because God also claimed that David is His son, Jacob is His son and Afrain is His Son ( Mazmur 29:27), (Keluaran 4:22-23), (Irmia 31:9)..I am sorry I don't know in English...but as a Christian you should know better than me.

And..when you say God begot a Son (Jesus), meaning you are putting God at a same level like us. And when He begets a son, automatically His Oness is destructed.

Jesus doesn't know about the Day of Judgement..he doesn't when it will happen and etc...So, he has no power for all that.So he is not God...

I have so much more to give...since now is Maghrib(time to worship our God), I have to stop here...See you tommorrow...:nerd:

[ Last edited by  eastrun at 24-7-2006 07:01 PM ]

sparrow

Originally posted by pooja_1 at 24-7-2006 01:13 PM
GOD=Truine(F + S + HS). Son was elected to be worshipped.
The argument is GOD has been decomposed for some reason. And each composition is named.
So, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. ...

Firstly, nope. God is not (F + S + HS). I just hate it when people come up with this equation. God is an infinite being. For simplicity sake, if you want it in the form of equation instead of lengthy English words, I抣l put it this way:

God = the Father.
God = the Son.
God = the Holy Spirit.

Yet at the same time, the Father <> the Son <> the Holy Spirit. So go figure.

Makes sense? No.. at least, not the math equation.  But let me say this: Please do not try to define God with an elementary arithmetic equation. It抯 an insult to God抯 nature to say that He can be subjected to that of arithmetic equations. God is beyond all that. I don抰 think our limited human minds is capable of coming up with any arithmetic equations to define God.

Suffice to say, God has a triune nature. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each of these is a person. Now, Person does not mean human. A person is "An individual of specified character" or "The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self."
Each of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit have characteristics that are distinct from each other. However, since they are one God, in perfect unity, they are not as distinct as two humans are. The Father is not the Son, nor is He the Spirit. The Son is not the Father, nor is the Son the Spirit. And the Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son. Yet they are one God, and only one God.

But no. God has NOT been decomposed. The Father, is NOT a composition of God. He is NOT 1/3 of God. Likewise with the Son and the Holy Spirit.. They are NOT each 1/3 of God.

In all intents and purposes, I think the father exist uncreated and the rests were created.

Nope. That is not true. God exist uncreated

sparrow

You said got only two prophets...James and John

Is this just for argument sake? when did i say got only two prophets? I said James and John are two apostles of Jesus. I didn't say "only". James and John are two of the 12 apostles of Jesus. And I didn't say prophets. I said apostles. (look, i hate it when people twist my words and put words in my mouth simply because they don't read properly, so don't make me yell at you just because of this.)

Meaning that when Jesus said I am Alpha and Omega,it is not his word, but it is God's words...

If Jesus was referring to the Father as the Alpha and Omega, He would have said "HE".. not "I". I think you have a problem understanding the pronoun "I". Yes, it is God's Words... Jesus IS God, so it is definitely God's words. Don't look at Jesus and God as two different gods.. Look at Jesus and God as ONE God.

The Son of Man said: "I am the Alpha and Omega". So all the more reason to believe that the Alpha and Omega has been a human being before.

Note that Jesus is Son of God and Son of Man. These Titles are given to Him to emphasize on His DIVINITY as well as His HUMANITY. He is both fully GOD and fully MAN at the same time. Son of God emphasizes His divinity, Son of Man emphasizes His humanity. It just shows that He is God Incarnate, and that is who Jesus is.

. If you assumed that Jesus is the only begotten son(John 3:16), then you are completely wrong.Because God also claimed that David is His son, Jacob is His son

Well, David, Jacob,... No where in the Bible says that they are begotten sons of God. But the Bible did say, that Jesus is begotten Sonof God. No one is begotten son of God. Except Jesus.


Anyway, it's up to you. Just accept Jesus as a prophet if you like... You accept Jesus as a prophet, and I accept Jesus as Lord. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 25-7-2006 08:04 AM ]

Originally posted by sparrow at 24-7-2006 09:35 PM


Firstly, nope. God is not (F + S + HS). I just hate it when people come up with this equation. God is an infinite being. For simplicity sake, if you want it in the form of equation instead of l ...

You have simplified the formula from GOD=Triune(F + S + HS) into God is not (F + S + HS).
The functional statement (TRIUNE) was the original suggestion by you and I think, it does not imply F= 1/3 of GOD, etc.

Anyway, deep in my heart, I am crying seriously, pittying HIM who has to WORK.....

So, with that I should say you must give blessing to GOD.

.
.
.
May GOD Bless You.

sparrow

Originally posted by pooja_1 at 25-7-2006 12:17 PM
You have simplified the formula from GOD=Triune(F + S + HS) into God is not (F + S + HS).
The functional statement (TRIUNE) was the original suggestion by you and I think, it does not imply F= ...

Regardless with or without the Triune in your arithmetic formula, your F will not be an absolute One. So, No. Please. No. No arithmetical formulas will ever define God.

LOL.. now, why am i entertaining this post? LOL :stp:

But of course, i give praise and thanks to the Lord... though i try to suppress myself here, for the sake of non-Christian friends. It gonna annoy a lot of people once i start...

*sings*

Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

p/s: Don't scream at me for the little song there and tell me this is not C&C. You asked for it.

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 25-7-2006 06:59 PM ]

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 24-7-2006 09:51 PM

Is this just for argument sake? when did i say got only two prophets? I said James and John are two apostles of Jesus. I didn't say "only". James and John are two of the 12 apostles of  ...

Before you get angry..you have to look at your commentaries upon my questions first. Your commentaries about the two guys (James and John) are not clear at all. Just like your faith (full of assuming this and that). I am sorry to say that you are the one who twists the words. Because the twelve persons are not Jesus prophets but they are the disciples, where as the writer of the Revelation is not one of the disciples.

You want to know where I got this kind of opinion?. I am not taking from my scholars but I took them from yours. I watched Secret Bible on National Geographic during Bible Week. In the series, your scholar said " I don't have any ideas who wrote the Revelation". So, before you make accusition upon me, please feel free to watch the series, I am not sure when will National Geographic repeats the series.And if you want further infos, go and meet you scholar yourself!!!

By the way, by looking Revelation 1:1, John wrote..God gave the words to Jesus..meaning that every word uttered by Jesus is God's. He is using Jesus as 'orang tengah' to give those words to John(not sure who is this people).Why should God used word He?..He is the one who said that word by using Jesus mouth. Look!!.Now you against your book..your book said those words are from God that he gave to John through Jesus, but you assumed that those are Jesus's words.What a shame!!

Explain to me what is begotten son..If Jesus is different than other son, give me explanations..how he begot (that make he differents than others) :geram:. Don't just ASSUMING once again...Keep in mind. When you assume God begot a son, you are destructing the Oneness of God!!.

[ Last edited by  eastrun at 26-7-2006 06:41 PM ]

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 25-7-2006 06:56 PM


Regardless with or without the Triune in your arithmetic formula, your F will not be an absolute One. So, No. Please. No. No arithmetical formulas will ever define God.

LOL.. now, why am i e ...

As simple as that...Jesus himself never taught about Trinity (Mark 12:29).Never, even once..Sparrow, you know this, but you keep assuming about it all the time.

sparrow

James and John are two of Jesus's twelve apostles. It is this apostle John, who wrote Revelation. History has it, that John was imprisoned at Patmos in the year 95.
and in Revelation, the writer did say, that he is John, and he was writing from Patmos.. and He wrote on how he met the Risen Lord Jesus.
(who's the scholar? What's his name? Is he a Christian, or is he simply just an "orang putih" who is skeptic about the Bible?)


If in Revelation, Jesus is an 'orang tengah', (like you said),  "The Lord said..." He would have said,"The Lord said. I am the Alpha and Omega...". But no. He didn't say "the Lord said...". He just said it directly and iterally, from Himself. I'm not assuming anything on this. I'm just taking it directly, literally. It is you who are assuming the Father said.

Compare with how prophets of old carried words of God, when they are orang tengah, they specifically used the words "saith the lord.. or "The Lord said". But Jesus did not.

See how God instructs Moses when Moses is supposed to carry God's words to someone.. He is supposed to use the words "saith the Lord,....."

Exodus 8:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

See how the prophets, as an orang tengah, carries the words of God. He always attributes the words back to God. Jesus did not. Jesus never said.. "The Father said"..
The below are examples of prophet's saying, when they act as an "orang tengah" to deliver a message from God.

Isaiah 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Isaiah 45:18
18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Jeremiah 1:12
Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

Those are how prophets speak when they become orang tengah for God. Contrast this with how Jesus spoke it:
Jesus NEVER said "The Lord said, I am the Alpha and Omega". He also NEVER said,"The Lord said, Before Abraham was, I AM".
He simply said "I am the Alpha and Omega". And He also said,"I tell you the truth,Before Abraham was, I AM".

in your post above, you said:

In Revelation 1:1, John wrote..God gave the words to Jesus..

But look at the verse again:
Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John...

So nope.. the Bible doesn't say.. "the words to Jesus". Read carefullly. It says: The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

The Revelation OF Jesus Christ.. not the Revelation from Jesus Christ..  but the Revelation OF Jesus Christ. When you say "the Revelation of 'something'... it means that 'something' itself is being revealed. In other words, what is it that is being revealed here? Jesus Christ.

In the light of this, this Revelation,  refers to the WHOLE VISION that John saw, and not only the words spoken by Jesus.John simply saw Jesus coming to him as God.

And nope, i'm not assuming. But i take every word and every sentence very very carefully. It is you who are assuming that the "Revelation" means "the words", and hence you came up with that understanding.  But Revelation, does NOT mean "words".

English: Revelation
Original Greek Word: ajpokavluyi&szlig;
Transliterated Greek: Apokalupsis
Definition:
1. a disclosure of truth, instruction
a) concerning things before unknown
b) used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
2. manifestation, appearance

So, if you look at the Greek meaning, Revelation does not means "words". (It was you who assumed it means "words"). The Revelation of Jesus Christ.. it means:
it is a manifestation/appearance of Jesus Christ.. and
it discloses the truth concerning things which are before unknown, and to make visible to all, about the Lord Jesus Christ - that He is the Lord, and He is the coming Lord who will come to judge and to rule... ie, the WHOLE VISION that John saw.

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 27-7-2006 06:01 AM ]

sparrow

Explain to me what is begotten son..If Jesus is different than other son, give me explanations..how he begot (that make he differents than others) :geram:

I don't assume,my friend. I conclude.The word "begotten" did not come from me. It came from the Bible. Jesus Himself said that He is the begotten Son of God. Jesus Himself used the words 'only begotten Son' when He refers to Himself.. and He did use the word "only".  I'm only quoting Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Original Greek word : monogenhv&szlig;
Transliterated Greek: Monogenes
Definition: single of its kind , only used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation t o their parents)
            used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

How does God begat a son? As I've said earlier, God is INCARNATED in human form, and dwelt among men. INCARNATED. Not Created.
Begotten son of God.. does not mean creating another God. And hence, no Oneness was destroyed. God came from Himself, unto man.

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 26-7-2006 08:00 PM
James and John are two of Jesus's twelve apostles. It is this apostle John, who wrote Revelation. History has it, that John was imprisoned at Patmos in the year 95.
and in Revelation, the writer d ...

Then who are Jesus's disciple?.

About the scholar...that's why I told you to watch the series yourself..keep in mind SECRET BIBLE.Because if I give you the datails, still you don't want to believe..so it is better for you to see yourself..

If you said that Jesus is not as orang 'tengah' like those prophets that come before him, then a person in Deutronomy 18:18 is not Jesus.

"I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deutronomy 18:18

Since you said that Jesus is not uttering God's words..so don't you ever dare to claim that the prophet said above is Jesus.

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I said the prophet above is Muhammad S.A.W..

Why?. Because God instructed him to uttered His words:

For example, my friend:

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;.And there is none like unto Him. " (Surah Al Ikhlas 112:1-4)

Look at the first word: SAY!!!.God instructed Muhammad to uttered His words.So Muhammad is the promised prophet that God revealed to Moses.Don't say Jesus because you claimed that Jesus is not uttering God's words.
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This is what I tried to tell you...this is how those prophets work. God give them the words/revelations, they revealed them just as same as what God has given them. And that's is what happened to Jesus too. About the Revelation 1:1, you took the front words, but you left behind the words "which God gave into him" Who gave the Revelation to Jesus?. Of course God, not Jesus himself!!. If it is the Revelation of Jesus, the verse "which God gave into him" should not exist.But since the verse "which God gave into him" existed, so those verses in the Revelation are God's not Jesus's..And once again, Jesus himself never claimed that those verses in the Revelation are his.
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About the meaning of Revelation:

English: Revelation
Original Greek Word: ajpokavluyi&#223;
Transliterated Greek: Apokalupsis
Definition:
1. a disclosure of truth, instruction
a) concerning things before unknown
b) used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
2. manifestation, appearance

See the 1.
a) concerning things before unknown..(PROPHECISED)

Revelation is Wahyu..which God gave to every prophets.That is why people that recieved the revelation called prophets because by recieving the revelation from God, they are able to tell what would happen in the future. By the way, the 1st meaning is stronger than the second meaning( manifestation, appearance), that is why they put it behind the (Concerning things before unknown). So, Jesus recieved the revelations and he revealed to his disciples..so he is a prophet.
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When I read the bIBLE...Jesus himself claimed that he doesn't know when is the day of Judgement will happen.Just like every prophet of God..So, I keep thinking, why you still assuming that he is God, even though he clearly stated that his level is just like the prophets that God has sent before and after him....:hmm:

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 26-7-2006 11:06 PM


I don't assume,my friend. I conclude.The word "begotten" did not come from me. It came from the Bible. Jesus Himself said that He is the begotten Son of God. Jesus Himself used the wo ...

Now you say the word son is not really son?

And another thing about the John 3:16:
"FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.."

I wonder...God loved the world?.If God loved the world, He won't destroy the world during the Judgement Day.God doesn't love the world, that is why he created the hell and heaven.

In Islamic view, the creation of Jesus is much more logic. Not like assuming this and that.God said in the Holy Quran:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.(Surah Al - Imran 3:59)

And remember when Mary asked God how can she has a son?:

"She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"(Surah Al-Imran 3:47)

This is how God created Jesus.He just said spiritually "BE!!".And Jesus created.

[ Last edited by  eastrun at 27-7-2006 07:05 PM ]

sparrow

Originally posted by eastrun at 27-7-2006 07:02 PM
Now you say the word son is not really son?

And another thing about the John 3:16:
"FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.."

I wonder...God loved the world?.If God loved the world, He w ...

Haizz....

i didnt say the word "son" is not really "son". I said there is a difference between "son" and "only begotten son".

sparrow

Originally posted by eastrun at 27-7-2006 06:55 PM
About the scholar...that's why I told you to watch the series yourself..keep in mind SECRET BIBLE.Because if I give you the datails, still you don't want to ...

i dun hv astro laa... i don't stay in my own home. rented room no astro laa...

sparrow

Originally posted by eastrun at 27-7-2006 06:55 PM
Revelation is Wahyu..which God gave to every prophets.That is why people that recieved the revelation called prophets because by recieving the revelation from God, they are able to tell what would happen in the future. By the way, the 1st meaning is stronger than the second meaning( manifestation, appearance), that is why they put it behind the (Concerning things before unknown). So, Jesus recieved the revelations and he revealed to his disciples..so he is a prophet.

Are you aware that when Jesus appeared to John in Revelation, He is no longer an earthly human? He has died, and risen again from the grave - and He is  in His spiritual body.

sparrow

Since you said that Jesus is not uttering God's words..so don't you ever dare to claim that the prophet said above is Jesus.

what kinda logic is this?

By the way, I didn't say that Jesus is not uttering God's words. I was referring specifically to Revelation. I was saying that the Revelation is MORE than just the words Jesus said. The Revelation is the whole thing - the appearance of Jesus, the words He said.. and also the visions that John saw.

Well. since Jesus is God, so whatever HE said (whether by His own, or from the Father).. it is ALSO God's words, ain't it? He Himself is God.. so His words are God's words as well...

Jesus is God.. and yes, while He walked on earth.. He spoke and prophecied about the kingdom of God and the things to come.. what's so difficult with that? -In other words, God Incarnated, who came down and gave us His prophecy.

Jesus did give His prophecy - so yes, He is considered a Prophet as well. (A prophet is simply one who prophecies.. whether He is man, or He is God - as long as He prophecies.)

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 27-7-2006 10:17 PM ]

sparrow

I wonder...God loved the world?.If God loved the world, He won't destroy the world during the Judgement Day.God doesn't love the world, that is why he created the hell and heaven

You have a doubt on that? It is in the Bible. I thought you do form your conclusions based on the Bible as well as the Qur'an?

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 27-7-2006 07:23 PM


Haizz....

i didnt say the word "son" is not really "son". I said there is a difference between "son" and "only begotten son".

Keep in mind...God beget a son..it is like you make God at same level like His creations...like us..like the animals. God didn't beget a son. You might say the beget not really beget..Yes..I agree..Beget in this contact meaning "sending down" OR "Mengutus".So he is not a son of God...he is a prophet. And..of course he is son of Man because he is Mary's son.

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About the Astro...as a Christian..even though you don't have Astro, you still have many other sources to learn about who wrote the book..I dare to say that I heard with my own ears...I watched with my own eyes...your scholar claimed that they doesn't know who wrote the Revelation. When you don't have the ASTRO, it doesn't a matter, but when you don't know the truth and what your scholar have said about the Revelation...that's the problem..So, move yourself to clarify yourself..Unless you are afraid to know about it.
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Before this, we are debating about the meaning of Revelation. Revelation is those words in the books that God has given  to His prophets. You see the First meaning of Revelation ----PROPHECIES. It means PROPHECIES of Jesus that God has given to him. So Jesus is a prophet, kawanku..Why so hard to understand the verse?.The langauge that you know better...All he said is God's words, not his.The Alpha and Omega is God.
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If you read the Deutronomy 18:18:

God will raise up a PROPHET. Whereas, you said Jesus is God, not prophet..So, don't you dare to say that the eutronomy 18:18 is Jesus.Not at all. If he is the one who uttered those prophecies, then you should call him prophet not God.  .

See.. i already knew that you will change your statement...now you say that Jesus uttered God's word..not his words?.Hehe. Kelakar betul. This is what happen when you want Jesus to be all you wanted him to be..You mixed them up and at last they confusing yourself. Jesus will never be the prophet in the Deutronomy 18:18...but Muhammad is.

By the way please read more Deutronomy 18 from 18 onwards...you will all the charactheristics are in the last prophet..Muhammad..
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About God loved the world...I said there is something wrong about the verse because God doesn't love the world. If He loves the world, He won't destroy the world and sent us to the hell or heaven....
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[ Last edited by  eastrun at 28-7-2006 07:09 PM ]

sparrow

Originally posted by eastrun at 28-7-2006 07:06 PM

Keep in mind...God beget a son..it is like you make God at same level like His creations...like us..like the animals. God didn't beget a son. You might say the beget not really beget..Yes..I  ...

sigh.. read my post again. Well, to simplify things, instead of long long lengthy sentences (which you don't seem to be able to read):

Jesus IS God.

Jesus's words = God's Words.

ie, Jesus uttering His words = Jesus uttering God's word.

understand?


Anyway, here's a link for you.
http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 28-7-2006 10:38 PM ]

sparrow

So he is not a son of God...he is a prophet. And..of course he is son of Man because he is Mary's son.

Well, the Bible said many times He is Son of God. And Jesus Himself said He is the only Begotten Son of God.

And i thought it was YOU who said  you make your conclusions from the Bible AND the Qur'an?

If that is the case, your conclusions are not consistent with your statements, you know?
The bible said many times that He is the Son of God. And you say He is not son of God? and you claim that your conclusions are from the Bible AND the Qur'an? So what are you talking here?

Originally posted by eastrun at 16-7-2006 06:55 PM
It is not about what I believe...but the conclusion were made using those evidences from the Bible and the Holy Quran..

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 29-7-2006 02:29 PM ]