The Koran and the Jews

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-6-21 02:11 PM:
Kennkid still have no answers to what Sura 5 says about Israel belonging to Jews. Thats the reason why he desperately tries to detract from the topic. He needs to deny his Quran

cheers [ ...

now u're spammin ur own thread.  stay cool watson

btw how did outcast imported jews get israel?  accordin to koran or donkey un divided PALESTINE so that israel can exist?  HARDcommonsense watson  

peace

sonny~~

Originally posted by sonny~~ at 2004-6-14 01:04 PM:
repaste for comparison purpose plz  ;)

MID-EAST STRIFE:
RE-DISCOVERING THE BIBLE'S FORGOTTEN SOLUTION
By Rev. Ted Pike

The raging conflict in the Middle East sparks two essent ...

judaism jews who follow the bible plz stand up  :hmm:

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-6-21 11:26 AM:
Really? If that is the case, why are there still so mkany so called Palestinians in Israel? You are a liar Kennkid.

cheers

simple.  coz israel historically is PALESTINE.  thats why theres still PALESTINIAN israelis athough their number is dwindlin.  incidentally theres no israeli PALESTINIANS in PALESTINE.  the jews there call emselves PALESTINIAN jews not israeli PALESTINIANS.  right?  u know why?  read history dilligently watson  

peace

sonny~~

Originally posted by KENNKID at 2004-6-21 10:36 AM:
Sharon, Israel, Wants Palestine Without The Palestinians – Which Is Genocide!!


&quo ...

So the question is why Israel doesn’t just Annex Palestine which is the desire for many Palestinians who want to get out of the circle of violence and humiliation? The answer is, Israel thinks that the Palestinians may form majority winning election and running the country!


Then the idea comes, well, if Israel doesn’t want to Annex Palestine why don’t they let the Palestinians be free and run their own country? The fact is while most Israelis want peace and are ready to live side by side with the Palestinians, most North American and European Jews feel that Israel need more land and must keep Palestine!

In other words, Indicted War Criminal Ariel Sharon and his right wing regime along with many North American and European Jews want Palestinians to leave Palestine out of fear for life and unbearable hardship! The occupied land is a very lucrative Real Estate for North American investors! The only problem is the unwanted Palestinians living there!

eye opener postin KENNY

btw d rapist sharon follow koran or bible or torah when he rapes PALESTINE so as to get israel?  anyone?  :hmm:

[ Last edited by sonny~~ on 22-6-2004 at 08:45 AM ]

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-6-21 10:09 AM:
how did outcast arabs import arabs in the first place?

to which land that socalled outcast arabs import arabs in first place?  be brave now.  no wiggle waggle watson  

peace

Debmey

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle. Muslims just have no answers to what the Quran says.

[quote]The Qur'an adumbrates several principles that hover around a common theme:  God does not love injustice and will assist those who are wrongly treated.  And  it focuses so much  on this  that  the  person most mentioned in the Qur'an is Moses -- who is presented as God's revolutionary, and who leads a people despised and tormented for no other reason than that they worshipped God,  out of the land of bondage to the  Promised  Holy Land.

The Qur'an in Chapter 5: 20-21 states quite clearly: Moses said to his people: O my people!  Remember the bounty of  God upon you  when  He bestowed  prophets upon you , and  made  you  kings and gave you that which  had not been given to  anyone before you amongst  the nations. O my people!  Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

The  Quran goes on to say why the Israelites were not allowed to enter the land for forty years...but the thrust of my analysis is where Moses says that the Holy Land is that which God has "written" for the Israelites. In both Jewish and Islamic understandings of the term "written", there is the meaning of finality, decisiveness and immutability. And so we have the Written Torah (unchangeable) and the Oral Torah (which represents change to suit times). And in the Qur'an we have "Written upon you is the fast"--to show that this is something that is decreed, and which none can change.  So the simple fact is then, from a faith-based point of view: If God has "written" Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this?


The Qur'an refers to the exiles, but leaves it open for return...saying to the Jews that if they keep their promise to God, then God will keep the divine promise to them. WE may argue that the present state of Israel was not created in the most peaceful means, and that many were displaced--for me, this is not the issue. The issue is that when the Muslims entered that land in the seventh century, they were well aware of its rightful owners, and when they failed to act according to divine mandate (at least as perceived by followers of all Abrahamic faiths), they aided and abetted in a crime. And the present situation shows the fruits of that action--wherein innocent Palestinians and Israelis are being killed on a daily basis.

I also draw your attention to the fact that the medieval exegetes of Qur'an--without any exception known to me--recognized Israel as belonging to the Jews, their birthright given to them. Indeed, two of Islam's most famous exegetes explained "written" from Quran 5:21 thus:


Ibn Kathir (d. 774/1373) said: 揟hat which God has written for you

My people, enter the Holy Land, which God has ordained for you. Do not turn back in your tracks and so become transformed into losers. (Qur'an, 5:21)

After Musa (Moses), peace be upon him, the Israelites continued to live in Canaan (Palestine). Again according to historians, Dawud (David) became the Israelis' king and created a powerful kingdom. During the reign of his son Sulayman (Solomon), Israel's borders extended from the Nile River in the south to the Euphrates River in today's Syria to the north. This was a magnificent period for the Israelite kingdom in many fields, particularly architecture. In Jerusalem, Sulayman had a magnificent palace and temple built. After his death, God sent many more prophets to the Children of Israel, though in most cases they (The Children of Israel) did not listen to them (the prophets) and rebelled against God.

Those who disbelieve filled their hearts with fanatical rage - the fanatical rage of the Time of Ignorance - and God sent down serenity to His Messenger and to the believers, and bound them to the expression of guarding against evil which they had most right to and were most entitled to. God has knowledge of all things.
(Qur'an, 48:26)

As a result of their degeneracy, the Israelite kingdom dissolved and was occupied by various idolatrous peoples, and the Israelites, also known as Jews at the time, were enslaved once again.

When Palestine was occupied by the Roman Empire, Prophet 'Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, came and once again invited the Children of Israel to forsake their pride, superstitions, and rebelliousness and to live according to God's religion. Very few Jews believed in him; most of the Children of Israel denied him. And, as the Qur'an reports, they were:

"Those among the tribe of Israel who disbelieved were cursed on the tongue Dawud and that of 'Isa, son of Maryam." (Qur'an, 5:78)

After some time, God plagued the Jews with the Romans, who drove all of them out of Palestine.

Our reason for this lengthy explanation is to show that the Zionists' fundamental contention that "alestine is the land God promised to the Jews"  is not true. This topic will be examined in more detail in the chapter on Zionism.

Zionism interprets the concepts of "chosen people" and "promised land" through a racist lense.  According to this claim, everyone descended from the Jews is "chosen" and owns "the promised land." However, race has no value in the sight of God, for what is important is godliness and righteousness. In God's eyes, the chosen ones are those who continue to follow the religion of Ibrahim, no matter what their race may be.

The Qur'an also emphasizes this fact. God announces that Ibrahim's heirs are not the Jews who boast of being "children of Ibrahim," but the Muslims who live according to his religion:

The people with the strongest claim to Ibrahim are those who followed him and this Prophet [Muhammad], and those who believe. God is the Protector of believers. (Qur'an, 3:68)


W.REPORT, JULY 96
While Jews opposed to Zionism (left) openly defy the Israeli government, fanatical Jews (right) take the view: "The Promised Land is for the Chosen People. For good. For keeps. Forever." On a cover of Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, fanatical Jews are pictured carrying signs with this slogan. Due to such mistaken ideas, they behave cruelly toward their captive population of Palestinian Christians and Muslims.

http://www.harunyahya.com/palestine04.php

Kennkid still tries to pervert the Koran to suit his bigoted perceptions.

"alestine is the land God promised to the Jews"  is not true

Moses is Jew. His people is Jews. He led his people out of Egypt to The Promised Land. Koran Chapter 5: 20-21 "Moses said to his people: O my people!  Remember the bounty of  God upon you  when  He bestowed  prophets upon you , and  made  you  kings and gave you that which  had not been given to  anyone before you amongst  the nations. O my people!  Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you".

the Holy Land is that which God has "written" for the Israelites. In both Jewish and Islamic understandings of the term "written", there is the meaning of finality, decisiveness and immutability. If God has "written" Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this? Perhaps Kennkid can change it. ;)

The Qur'an refers to the exiles, but leaves it open for return.

2 of Islam's most famous exegetes explained "written" from Quran 5:21 thus:

Ibn Kathir (d. 774/1373) said: 揟hat which God has written for you

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 2004-6-22 12:28 PM:
Kennkid still tries to pervert the Koran to suit his bigoted perceptions.


Moses is Jew. His people is Jews. He led his people out of Egypt to The Promised Land. Koran Chapter 5: 20-21 "[c ...

I'm not going to respond yet to your impotent comments, but just to say this :  When you first came into this Cari forum: Religion Board,  (or rather when you first appeared under this nick)  you  never showed yourself to be the Debmey-like diehard defender or the spokesman  for the Christian Zionists (CZ). Now you have 'bloomed'  to become their flag bearer. We cannot help but notice this transformation from the Confucian-style  'scholar' type that you wanted to impress upon us.:hmm: ~ to a fanatical anti Islam CZ fanatic clone of Debmey.  I cannot congratulate you for that unfortunately ~  maybe my condolences would be more appropriate.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 22-6-2004 at 03:38 PM ]

It is because I have grown sick of anti-America bashing! I've had grown tired of half-baked conspiracy theories! Most of what is uttered are lies! Never reflects true accounts of reality. It is the same in UK, Singapore and here. Therefore, I am utterly turned-off!

When I first came in, I did not notice much of everyone. Perhaps there are way too many topics in the Religion board. After it had closed down, I'm more focussed on WP and found out your hate posts demonizing Israel & America. I have noticed how evil propaganda tossed out from the Middle East and are exposed & ridiculed in the Wests. I have seen alot more than you could admit. As a result of this, that region produced legions of hate bigots! The vast market of hate-filled gullible simpletons can be easily recruited to commit murder they see as enemy which appalled me! I see the Jews are God's creations as well. I do not see why they seek to destroy God's other children. Therefore, it became dawn on me that these people aren't reacting in accordance with God but themselves. Thus, I do not compromise with hate-filled bigots! What you're doing here is tantamount to spreading myth, lies and hate! Take it or leave it! That's all I have to say. I will go on challenge those who spread lies & hate. Unabated.

And...if Aggie is not you, surely you've produced another bigot!

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 2004-6-22 03:42 PM:
And...if Aggie is not you, surely you've produced another bigot!

So you are Debmey. Top Toink.... You're weak, you cannot stand the pressure.:lol...All you have to do now is keep on denying. I shan't say it again. Prove to us you're not. Anyway, you're allowed to have as many nicks as you want ~ if that is a consolation.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 22-6-2004 at 03:48 PM ]

Hello everyone,

I'm not Debbie or Ste or whoever you thought I was.  I had found this forum by accident and started to post only last week.

Surah 5 like the OT (see Samuel and Kings) also states that should the Children of Israel disobey God's commandments they will lose the kingdom.  See further in Surah 5:12-13 then in Surah 5:25 Moses prayed to God to separate him and his people save for his brother Aaron, and God punished the Israelites by making them lost in their "land" for 40 years.  And further in 5:32 God "reminded" them of the punishment bestowed upon them should they kill people and create mischieve through the land, just like what the OT said (Deutronomy).

Personally, I have no objection to the creation of the state of Israel.  But to argue that the land is theirs because God said so, to be honest, holds no water in this modern world.  The new world is about human rights and if the state of Israel is created on the misery and suffering of millions of people, then there is something terribly wrong.

If I was Arafat, I would've walked out of Oslo II as well.  The peace talks were based on UN Res. 242 but Oslo II was not even a friction of 242.  

Res. 242 calls for Israel armies withdrawal from all occupied territorie (Gaza + West Bank), termination of all claims to states captured in the 67 conflict ie Sinai, Gaza and West Bank, settlement of refugee (Palestinians) problems in exchange for Israel to be recognized by all her Arab neighbours.

In Oslo II, Arafat was offered 90% of West Bank and Gaza, the 10% was to be kept by Israel in exchange for a piece of land in the Negev Desert.  That 10% that Israel wanted to keep held all the best part of WB, water resources, PA administration capital and custom borders.  That 90% that Israel wanted to give to Arafat contain Jewish illegal settlement with Israel posts and blockage.  That means the Palestinians will still be at the mercy of Israel (refer to Oslo II map dividing Palestine in Area A, B and C).
Yes, the illegal settlement remains but there was no discussion about the settlement of Palestinian refugees returning.

http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=79&aid=118&pg=1
Law and Disorder in the Middle East, by Francis A. Boyle

Jews are sitting on their own land, it belongs to them.

Jews like Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon, Golda Meir etc were/are Akhenazi Jews.  They are of European descendants and were/are not the original children of the 12 tribes. The original Palestinian Jews were/are Shepardim Jews ie Arab descendants.  Majority of the Jews in Israel were immigrants to the Holy land and as soon as the European Jews took lead, the Shepardims were discriminated because of their skin.  

So, the original original Jews who has been living in Israel for generations are being disriminated to make way to this "white" Jews.

samerosie aka lilrosie aka Aggie aka KENNKID,

Not going to respond konon. Come up with another newbie moniker to continue with me.

->Surah 5 like the OT (see Samuel and Kings) also states that should the Children of Israel disobey God's commandments they will lose the kingdom.

->See further in Surah 5:12-13 then in Surah 5:25 Moses prayed to God to separate him and his people save for his brother Aaron, and God punished the Israelites by making them lost in their "land" for 40 years.

->And further in 5:32 God "reminded" them of the punishment bestowed upon them should they kill people and create mischieve through the land, just like what the OT said (Deutronomy).

The Qur'an refers to the exiles, but leaves it open for return...

just like what the OT said (Deutronomy)

IF you subscribe to Deuteronomy:
The conquest of Israel by Assyria and Judah by Babylon, as well as their occupation by the Greek and Roman empires were seen as warnings from God that if they didn't keep their side of the covenant, the "bad side" of the promises laid out in Deuteronomy would occur, namely the 2000 year diaspora. As history shows, the Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, Jerusalem was burned to the ground within that generation as Daniel and Jesus prophesied (Mathew chapters 23,24&25 as well as harmonizing verses in Mark and Luke) and the Jews were dispersed
throughout the world in accordance with the prophecy in Deuteronomy.

God also promised that foreign nations would return the
Jews to Israel after the final punishments of the dispora which are
commonly thought to have been fulfilled by the Nazi holocaust and as
recent history shows, other countries began returning the Jews to
Israel, as continues today in fulfillment of prophecy.

Samerosie, 2000 years had passed.

Res. 242 calls for Israel armies withdrawal from all occupied territorie (Gaza + West Bank), termination of all claims to states captured in the 67 conflict ie Sinai, Gaza and West Bank, settlement of refugee (Palestinians) problems in exchange for Israel to be recognized by all her Arab neighbours.

This is an old trick employed by the Arab spin doctors. I doubt you ever read Resolution 242 which you purportedly base on. The key word is BOTH:
Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

->Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
->Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

In Oslo II, Arafat was offered 90% of West Bank and Gaza, the 10% was to be kept by Israel in exchange for a piece of land in the Negev Desert

You're not good in geography aren't you? ;) Negev is an Israeli province. :lol

And also, Ehud Barak offered 95% not 90%. As I've said, you never read up Res242 & 338. Israel may determine on their term within negotiation their preferred secure line.

That 10% that Israel wanted to keep held all the best part of WB, water resources, PA administration capital and custom borders

Wrong. Israel had already decided to keep Golan Heights which is capable of providing them with 1/3 of water resources.

Yes, the illegal settlement remains but there was no discussion about the settlement of Palestinian refugees returning

Since they left Israel to be destroyed by foreign legions, they have to settle with Palestine. What about the other Middle East refugees - the Jews? The question remained unanswered.

BTW, please stick to the topic. The Koran quotes that says  it was WRITTEN for the Jews. 10q.

Jews like Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon, Golda Meir etc were/are Akhenazi Jews.  They are of European descendants and were/are not the original children of the 12 tribes

This issue had been addressed. Read Page 2 & 3 of this thread.

Ashkenazi Jews, like all Jewish populations, originated in the Middle East whose ancestors who immigrated to Eastern Europe at the time of the Diaspora. Jews in ME & Europe have identical genetic code.

The original Palestinian Jews were/are Shepardim Jews ie Arab descendants

Please refer to SephardicJews.com to gain clearer understanding before yakking. The descendant of Jews who left Spain and Portugal after the 1492 expulsion are referred to as Sephardim. The word Sephardim means Spain comes from Hebrew, Sepharad. The term is used in the Bible also. Jews have lived in Spain since era of King Solomon(c.965-930 B.C.E). The exiled Sephardic Jews settled in parts of Europe: Venice, Leghorn, London, Amsterdam, Bordeaux, Bayonne, Hamburg, Arab world and North Africa but lived as 2nd class citizens known as dhimmis. However, Jews are Jews. The difference is that those who lived in Spain were differentiated due to Bible mention.

Majority of the Jews in Israel were immigrants to the Holy land and as soon as the European Jews took lead, the Shepardims were discriminated because of their skin

Israel called for more Jewish immigrants similar other European countries due to population inadequacy.

So, the original original Jews who has been living in Israel for generations are being disriminated to make way to this "white" Jews

How do you explain the millions of Middle Eastern Jews who fled to Israel when Arab nations carried out Judenrein (Jewish cleansing)? They were accepted and granted citizenship thus no Jewish refugees unlike Arabs. Moroccan-born David Levy, has served as foreign minister and, in July 2000, Iranian-born Moshe Katsav was elected president. Sephardic Jews have a long way to catch up but they were not discriminated or oppressed.

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-6-22 10:42 AM:
Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle. Muslims just have no answers to what the Quran says.

n u have no answer why outcast imported jews didnt follow koran or bible or torah when they raped PALESTINE to get israel  

peace

MID-EAST STRIFE:
RE-DISCOVERING THE BIBLE'S FORGOTTEN SOLUTION
By Rev. Ted Pike

The raging conflict in the Middle East sparks two essential questions. First: Do the Jews own Palestine? The answer is yes. Scripture makes it clear that the land of Palestine was given by God to the physical descendants of Abraham. (Gen. 12:7, 13-14-17- 11 Chron. 20:7; Acts 7:5)

Secondly- Do the Jews have the right to occupy Palestine? The answer to this question is no! Scripture states that if Israel rejects Jesus, (Yahweh) who brought them into Canaan, He will expel them from the land. They can never lawfully return until they are obedient to their rejected Messiah.

Yahweh's conditional terms of occupancy are bluntly laid down in Leviticus 26-27,33. "Yet if in spite of this you do not obey me, but act with hostility against me, then I will act with wrathful hostility against you ... You ... I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste."

Deuteronomy 4:25-27 continues: "When you do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God so as to provoke him to anger, I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that you shall surely perish quickly from the land ... You shall not live long on it, but shall be utterly destroyed. And the Lord will scatter you among the nations, where the Lord shall drive you."

And in Deuteronomy 58:63-4- "if you are not careful to observe all the words of this law ... you shall be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it. Moreover, the Lord will scatter you among all peoples."

In the Old Testament, when Israel and Judah abandoned Yahweh, both nations were exiled from Palestine: Israel by the Assyrians in 722 B.C., Judah by the Babylonians in 597 B.C.

Only abject repentance entitled a small minority of Judeans, under Ezra and Nehemiah, to return from Babylon and again occupy their land of promise. After the remnant Jews' rejection and crucifixion of Christ, they also were scattered among the nations in fulfillment of God's ancient decree.

Since their expulsion under Titus in 70 A.D., the Jews still have not repented. They have not given Christ the obedience He demands.

Who Has Rights of Occupation? Who, then, are the legitimate occupants of Palestine today? When God exiled Judah under Nebuchadnezzar in 597 B.C. He allowed various mixed people, later called Samaritans, to occupy Judea. Such occupancy was not conditional on righteousness. What was important was that rebellious Jews not occupy the land.

Similarly, when God expelled the Jews from Palestine in 70 A.D. He allowed various peoples eventually known as Palestinian Arabs to occupy the land in lieu of Jewish obedience.

Do the Palestinians own the land? They do not. But they do have divine approval, as did the ancient Samaritans, to become tenants of the land until Israel repents.

Someday, out of great tribulation, a remnant of Jews will give God the obedience He demands. Christ will lead this believing remnant back to the land of their forefathers; they will dwell there lawfully, in peace and safety. This will be the only legitimate return the Jews will make to Palestine since their rejection of Christ 2000 years ago. It will gloriously fulfill hundreds of Old Testament prophecies. (Isa. 4:4, 10:20, 59:20; Hos.14:4; Joel 2:18-20; Zeph. 2:7, 3:11-13) Until that time, God calls heaven and earth to testify that unbelieving Jews must remain dispersed, scattered, "wandering" among the nations (Deut. 4:25-27). And yet, as in ancient Babylon, God encouraged them to build, plant,  marry and take root in the land of their dispersion, and to "seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile." (Jer. 29:4-7)         

The proper role for unbelieving Jews is to dwell scattered among the very safe and prosperous Jewish communities in New York, London, Paris, etc. They are not to wrest Palestine from its divinely approved occupants, thus inciting persecution and hatred against Jews worldwide. This timeless principle of "no obedience, no occupancy" was illustrated in the time of Joshua. (Num. 13:25-33; 14:1-45) God invited the Hebrews to occupy Palestine by faith. Yet when unbelief emerged, He refused to let them in. When the people decided they wanted to penetrate the land anyway, God rejected them, ultimately condemning them to wander and die in the wilderness. Only a new, obedient generation (like the later generation under Ezra and Nehemiah) would be allowed to take root in a land dedicated to obedience.

(delete)

Debmey

What sonny didn't know is that Ezekiel 26 expressly said that the return of Jews were solely by God's grace and not by works.
The Bible therefore does support & prophesied the return of the Jews just like the Quran.

cheers

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-6-23 08:56 AM:
What sonny didn't know is that Ezekiel 26 expressly said that the return of Jews were solely by God's grace and not by works.
The Bible therefore does support & prophesied the return of the J ...

exactly how yahweh or allah or ONE N ONLY ONE GOD wanna outcast imported jews get their israel?  thru rapin PALESTINE n genocide PALESTINIANS?  quote the bible or koran or torah intelligently now  

peace