Ada org cakap Nabi Muhammad SAW pandai baca

gunblade712

ohhhhhhhhh

itu aku tak penah dengar.. this is something new..

akukamudandia

Originally posted by orangbesi at 18-5-2008 09:32 AM
jika kaum itu ummiy atau dikatakan buta huruf
jadi kerana kaum itu buta huruf kah maka diutuskan rasul
utk mengajar AYAT TUHAN, dan mensucikan mereka
ajar kitab (ketetapan) dan Hikmah( sebab buta huruf kah)
dan adakah jika pada penghjung AYAT tu dikatakan mereka sebelum dlm kesesatan
tapi kat awal AYAT buta huruf (tak logik jadi AYAT niiiii)

rasenye ade posting aku citakan benda neh..
perkataan ummi itu apabila dirujuk kepada Nabi Muhammad ia membawa maksud buta huruf..
dan apabila perkataan ummi itu dirujuk kpd masyarakat arab ia membawa makna tidak pernah menerima sebarang kitab dari Allah..

puddle

Kenapa tak baca hadith bukhari nombor 862?

Hadith Muslim pula menceritakan....

Book 019, Number 4401:

Jadi siapa yang tulis?  Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. atau Saidina Ali r.a.?

Refer kepada beberapa hadith, nampaknya macam Saidina Ali yang tulis, Nabi Muhammad hanya memadamkan perkataan Rasulullah sahaja.   Betul ke tidak ni?

Hold on bro..is this a number game?

Kalau 3 hadis sahih kat saidina ali tulis dan 1 hadis sahih kata Nabi muhammad tulis so kesimpulannya mmg saidina ali yang tulis? You are just fooling your self

That is contradictary if you asked me.. hadith was never that reliable to be taken seriously in the first place. I presented that hadith in the first place for those who dont belive in the ayats of the Quran mentioning that Muhammad is able to dictate the verses of the Quran.

so bottom line?  kena balik ngaji bahasa arab le kita ni nampaknya.  hadith pun guna bahasa orang putih ni.

Bro looks like its never about language..tell me ibnur, if you yourself read in Arabic Bukhari Volume 003, Book 049, Hadith Number 863. Will you see prophet wrote it?

Bukhari

Volumn 003, Book 049, Hadith Number 863.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Al-Bara : When the Prophet intended to perform 'Umra in the month of Dhul-Qada, the people of Mecca did not let him enter Mecca till he settled the matter with them by promising to stay in it for three days only. When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned: 'These are the terms on which Muhammad, Allah's Apostle agreed (to make peace).' They said, "We will not agree to this, for if we believed that you are Allah's Apostle we would not prevent you, but you are Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." The Prophet said, "I am Allah's Apostle and also Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' ", but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name." So, Allah's Apostle took the document and WROTE, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed upon: No arms will be brought into Mecca except in their cases, and nobody from the people of Mecca will be allowed to go with him (i.e. the Prophet) even if he wished to follow him and he (the Prophet) will not prevent any of his companions from staying in Mecca if the latter wants to stay.' When the Prophet entered Mecca and the time limit passed, the Meccans went to 'Ali and said, "Tell your Friend (i.e. the Prophet) to go out, as the period (agreed to) has passed." So, the Prophet went out of Mecca. The daughter of Hamza ran after them (i.e. the Prophet and his companions), calling, "O Uncle! O Uncle!" 'Ali received her and led her by the hand and said to Fatima, "Take your uncle's daughter." Zaid and Ja'far quarrel ed about her. 'Ali said, "I have more right to her as she is my uncle's daughter." Ja'far said, "She is my uncle's daughter, and her aunt is my wife." Zaid said, "She is my brother's daughter." The Prophet judged that she should be given to her aunt, and said that the aunt was like the mother. He then said to 'All, "You are from me and I am from you", and said to Ja'far, "You resemble me both in character and appearance", and said to Zaid, "You are our brother (in faith) and our freed slave."

orangbesi

apa penerangan kau pulak?
takkan pak turut aje
kasilah input sikit

[ Last edited by  ibnur at 18-5-2008 09:29 PM ]

orangbesi

kalau diajar AYAT TUHAN secara tulis baca - mau jugak dikata kaum buta huruf
tapi DIAJAR BACA tanpa lembaran (hafal) cam dlm solat
takkan itupun atas tiket buta huruf kot

dalam kesesatan yang nyata (pada penghujung ayat)
takkan lah kerana manusia buta huruf maka mereka dalam kesesatan yg nyata
boleh pakai ke huraian itu?

contohnya yg boleh dibuat - mod dikategorikan bodoh kerana pakai kasut kat tengkok dia
tak logik kan ayat ni

[saja modify sikit - ibnur]

[ Last edited by  ibnur at 18-5-2008 09:39 PM ]

ibnur

Kalau 3 hadis sahih kat saidina ali tulis dan 1 hadis sahih kata Nabi muhammad tulis so kesimpulannya mmg saidina ali yang tulis? You are just fooling your self

pada pendapat kau Sheikh Qardhawi juga fool ke?

ada ke mana-mana post aku kata sebab 3 hadith lawan satu hadith maka 3 hadith tu benar?  adakah aku fooling atau kau trying to be smart?

That is contradictary if you asked me.. hadith was never that reliable to be taken seriously in the first place. I presented that hadith in the first place for those who dont belive in the ayats of the Quran mentioning that Muhammad is able to dictate the verses of the Quran.

aku dah paste translation hujah qardhawi pasal hadith bukhari tu.  kecuali kot kau tak faham bahasa melayu.

ibnur

dan satu point yang samada kau tak nampak atau saja tak nak nampak.  2 hadith dari muslim tu datang dari al-bara' dan hadith bukhari yang kau bawa tu juga dari al-bara.

puddle

Originally posted by ibnur at 18-5-2008 09:12 PM

pada pendapat kau Sheikh Qardhawi juga fool ke?

ada ke mana-mana post aku kata sebab 3 hadith lawan satu hadith maka 3 hadith tu benar? adakah aku fooling atau kau trying to be smart?


...

Bro moderator sir..you ignored the hadith that i gave thats why i mentioned that if 3 hadith vs 1 hadith..you took 3 hadith..

If Qardawi does not see the contradictoray hadith...and somebody else believe in him even the prove is infront of that somebody's eyes...than you should know who is the fool is..

dan satu point yang samada kau tak nampak atau saja tak nak nampak.  2 hadith dari muslim tu datang dari al-bara' dan hadith bukhari yang kau bawa tu juga dari al-bara.

Ok fine it came from one narator..can you explain to me why the text is different if it comes from one narattor plus one saying that Saidina Ali wrote and one more saying Muhammad wrote? if the story come from a single observer then it should be consistant..unless the Chinese whisperers from the chain of narration make a mistake.  

I ask you again bro moderator sir

if you yourself read in Arabic Bukhari Volume 003, Book 049, Hadith Number 863. Will you see prophet wrote it?

ibnur

did you see the hadith from bukhari 049 that part about saidina ali showing prophet muhammad the word rasulullah is not there?  that is why you need a few authentic hadith to make one complete story.

aku malas cakap orang putih.  kalau kau rasa kau smart dan orang lain fool.  fine with me.  agak-agak selain dari qaradhawi, siapa lagi ulamak dan professor yang fool?

ibnur

ooo...  pasal kenapa hadith dari orang sama tapi berlainan....  tu pasal sanadnya berlainan.  okay.

puddle

did you see the hadith from bukhari 049 that part about saidina ali showing prophet muhammad the word rasulullah is not there?  that is why you need a few authentic hadith to make one complete story.

C'mon bro..ur not answering the question..u and i both know that hadith 862 and 863 is the same story..but unfortunatly different version

ooo...  pasal kenapa hadith dari orang sama tapi berlainan....  tu pasal sanadnya berlainan.  okay.

So i guess this is a confession from you that Sanad system is not fool prove..it can cause distortion of the text that is transmitted..hence..not perfect

So bro moderator sir....if one hadith say Saidina Ali wrote and one say Nabi Muhammad wrote..you chose which one that your heart desire? . Lets face the fact that hadith will have defects and some defects  causes contradiction..even sahih hadith.. because the onces who provide the sanads are mearly humans..

ibnur

C'mon bro..ur not answering the question..u and i both know that hadith 862 and 863 is the same story..but unfortunatly different version

apa yg kau nak sebenarnya?  nak suruh aku ikut apa yg kau nak?  or is it the one what your mind desire?

you chose which one that your heart desire?

lagi pula kau cuma banding hadith bukhari 862 dan 863.  Kenapa tak masuk sekali hadith muslim?


[quote]1. It is reported in Sahih al-Bukhari that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) changed in the document of al-Hudaibiyah Truce the phrase 揗uhammad is the Messenger of Allah

puddle

apa yg kau nak sebenarnya?  nak suruh aku ikut apa yg kau nak?  or is it the one what your mind desire?

lagi pula kau cuma banding hadith bukhari 862 dan 863.  Kenapa tak masuk sekali hadith muslim?

Apa yang i nak.. for you to answer my question and for you to accept that no matter what hadith that you compare..either bukhari, muslim etc.. the narattor is the same..for the same story..however text is different.. therefore the sanad system is not that reliable.. purely Chinese whisperer s

either way..if you dont want...you can kindly ignore it.

tak jadi masaalah aku kalau kau nak percaya bahawa Nabi s.a.w. tu pandai membaca dan menulis.  Tapi kalau nak paksa org ikut hujah kau tu aku tak trima.  sebab nampaknya point yg kau sebut pun berulang atas satu hadith sahih.  harap kau punya hujah ni bukan berasas kepada satu hadith sahih ni sahaja.  sebab terdapat lagi sirah-sirah nabi s.a.w. yang perlu dirujuk juga.  juga terdapat lagi riwayat yang lain sebagai rujukan.

i dont understand you...you say satu hadith sahih tidak boleh dipakai? ur missing the whole point bro moderator sir..the whole system that bukhari and muslim work on is not foolprove.. ada yang kata Muhammad tulis..ada yang kata Saidina Ali tulis...so which one is correct..
i ulang2 my point is because you are ignoring my point...you can chose to ignore it..God guides ppl who uses their senses..

kalau hadith tu ada distortion, tak ada la dia jadi sahih.  

So hadith yang i beri tak sahih? how can it be included in sahih Bukhari?

Golongan bukan islam dan GAH yang kuat menghujahkan bahawa Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. tu bukan buta huruf dan hanya tak pernah baca kitab.  dah aku explainkan di page 8, sebab Allah menafikan sendiri

Dan kamu tidak pernah membaca sebelumnya (Al Quran) sesuatu Kitabpun dan kamu tidak (pernah) menulis suatu Kitab dengan tangan kananmu; andaikata (kamu pernah membaca dan menulis), benar-benar ragulah orang yang mengingkari(mu).
- Al-Ankabut Ayat 48

Bro moderator sir..better becarefull of what u say that Allah mentioned.. you will be asked..

as of 28:48, you should learn to read the Quran without the (brackets), it will only distored the meaning..better still if you go back to the original arabic text.. You should know that Allah curse ppl who say this and that is from Allah and actually it is not..

The verse only say that the prophet never read any kitab before the Quran and never wrote any kitab before the Quran.. it does not mean that he never read or wrote anything before the Quran. It is interesting that Allah mentioned he never wrote any book with his right hand.. if he cannot write at all...why mentioned his right hand?

There is a lot of verses that confirms that the prophet can actually read..

Read/Recite(root T-L-W) : 5:27 , 6:151, 13:30, 62:2 ... just to name a few,

The word "Tilawah" also comes from the same root. Hence when you have say you are having a "Tilawah Al-Quran" ceremony.. people read aloud(Recite) from the pages of the Quran, the same thing is done by the prophet during his time.

talking about ummiy, this is what the Quran have to say

Quran 62:2 He is who sent in the al-ommiyyeena a messenger from them, he recites on them His verses, and he purifies them , and he teaches them The Book , and the wisdom , and (even) if, they were from before in (E) clear/evident , misguidance.

It is clear from this verse that
1. The messenger will read on them His verses
2. The messenger is sent to a people who are Ummiy

From this verse, we can derive some question maybe ibnur can help answer them
1. How can the messenger read his verses if he is actually unliterate
2. the messenger is sent to people who are ummiy..by your definition, ummiy means unliterate. Hence all of the messenger comes to during his time is unliterate?  Then is Saidina Ali is unliterate? then how can he wrote the Hudaybiyah treaty? Or you are telling that the messenger is not meant to Saidina Ali as well?

Think bro moderator sir.. Ummiy does not mean un-literate. Alternative definition from the dictionaries..are ppl who have never given a Kitab.

Sekiranya Nabi Muhammad s.a.w. seorang yang pandai membaca, maka Isaiah 29:12 bukan merujuk kepada Nabi Muhammad s.a.w.
Isaiah 29:12
(ASV) and the book (1) is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.
(DRB) And the book shall be given to one that knoweth no letters, and it shall be said to him: Read: and he shall answer: I know no letters.
(MKJV) And the book is delivered to him who does not know books, saying, Please read this; and he says, I do not know books

maka berjayalah, ahli-ahli kitab berkenaan.

Bro moderator sir...last thing that i will do is to take passage on the bible to support my claim..sorry sir..Quran is enough for me..

Tie_Nan_Aima

Hmmm ..


Tajuknya tampak seakan menarik, bagus utk perbincangan.

Tetapi pada saya, sepatutnya ia mesti diletak "andai/Tahu Membaca Dan Menulis" merujuk kepada perkataan "Ummi" supaya ia merangkumi kedua-duanya sekali.

Berkenaan diskusi di sini pula, janganlah sampai ada yg kutuk mengutuk dan memaki sesama Muslim. Apa salahnya mengemukakan pendapat masing-masing dengan cara yg baik dan penuh bijaksana. Perkara yg sama juga boleh disampaikan kepada yg lain, bukan begitu?

Di sini ada satu persoalan mahu diajukan saya kepada sesiapa yg menganggap bahawa nabi Muhammad s.a.w. tidak tahu membaca (dan juga menulis).

- Mengapakah nabi Muhammad s.a.w. yg tidak tahu membaca dan menulis itu diutuskan oleh saidatina Khadijah r.a. utk menguruskan hal ehwal perniagaannya?

[ Last edited by  Tie_Nan_Aima at 19-5-2008 09:08 PM ]

Tie_Nan_Aima

حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ مُوسَى حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ و حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ عَنْ الزُّهْرِيِّ عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالَ لَمَّا حُضِرَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَفِي الْبَيْتِ رِجَالٌ فِيهِمْ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ هَلُمَّ أَكْتُبْ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لَا تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ إِنَّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَدْ غَلَبَ عَلَيْهِ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَكُمْ الْقُرْآنُ حَسْبُنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ فَاخْتَلَفَ أَهْلُ الْبَيْتِ فَاخْتَصَمُوا مِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ قَرِّبُوا يَكْتُبْ لَكُمْ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كِتَابًا لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ مَا قَالَ عُمَرُ فَلَمَّا أَكْثَرُوا اللَّغْوَ وَالِاخْتِلَافَ عِنْدَ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قُومُوا قَالَ عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ فَكَانَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ يَقُولُ إِنَّ الرَّزِيَّةَ كُلَّ الرَّزِيَّةِ مَا حَالَ بَيْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَبَيْنَ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ لَهُمْ ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْ اخْتِلَافِهِمْ وَلَغَطِهِمْ

     Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:

     Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he      said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a      statement after which you will not go astray.'
But 'Umar said, 'The      Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and      that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed     about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to      them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should      quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, "It was most      unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from     writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and      noise. (Note: It is apparent from this Hadith that Ibn 'Abbes had      witnessed the event and came out saying this statement. The truth is      not so, for Ibn 'Abbas used to say this statement on narrating the      Hadith and he had not witnessed the event personally. See Fath Al-Bari     Vol. 1, p.220 footnote.) (See Hadith No. 228, Vol. 4).

Kenapa baginda s.a.w. meminta kertas utk dituliskannya sesuatu sedangkan baginda tidak tahu menulis?

[ Last edited by  Tie_Nan_Aima at 19-5-2008 09:47 PM ]

akukamudandia

Originally posted by orangbesi at 18-5-2008 08:53 PM
kalau diajar AYAT TUHAN secara tulis baca - mau jugak dikata kaum buta huruf
tapi DIAJAR BACA tanpa lembaran (hafal) cam dlm solat
takkan itupun atas tiket buta huruf kot

dalam kesesatan yang nyata (pada penghujung ayat)
takkan lah kerana manusia buta huruf maka mereka dalam kesesatan yg nyata
boleh pakai ke huraian itu?

pada pendapat aku..
dari ape yg aku baca dan paham dari ayat ko..

1.dari posting aku yg lepas, aku ade huraikan sket yg ketika itu, budaya membaca masih tidak berkembang dibumi arab.. hanya sebilangan kecil shj yg tahu membaca dan menulis. Jadi sbb itulah Muhammad mngajar ilmu Al-Quran kpd masyarakat arab secara lisan. bukan dari text or lembaran.

2. dari posting aku yg lepas, aku ade huraikan sket yg ummi tu apabila dirujuk kpd masyarakat arab ia membawa makna 'TIDAK PERNAH MENERIMA SEBARANG KITAB DARI ALLAH". Sebelum Muhammad menerima wahyu Allah, masyarakat arab adalah masyarakat jahilliah. Sbb tulah mereka berada dlm kesesatan yg nyata.

correct me if im wrong

mnm77

Originally posted by Tie_Nan_Aima at 19-5-2008 09:06 PM
- Mengapakah nabi Muhammad s.a.w. yg tidak tahu membaca dan menulis itudiutuskan oleh saidatina Khadijah r.a. utk menguruskan hal ehwalperniagaannya?

Kerana Nabi telah diberi kepercayaan sepenuhnya. Tidak tahu membaca dari teks dan tidak tahu menulis bukannya bermaksud tidak boleh bermu'amalat, kalau kita masuk ke kampung2 pedalaman, kita boleh bertemu dengan mereka yang berniaga tapi tidak tahu membaca dari teks dan tidak tahu menulis.

Di tempat saya ni ada seorang dari Pakistan yang tidak tahu membaca, tapi diberi kepercayaan oleh majikannya untuk mengurus satu supermarket. Dia juga merangkap sebagai cashier/juruwang.

Kenapa baginda s.a.w. meminta kertas utk dituliskannya sesuatu sedangkan baginda tidak tahu menulis?

Kenapa baginda tidak menulis dengan sendiri lembaran Al-Quran, kalau baginda pandai tulis, dan apa buktinya kalau baginda pandai tulis? Daripada sirah Nabi kita dapat tahu ada beberapa orang yang menjadi jurutulis wahyu. Kenapa perlu jurutulis wahyu kalau Nabi pandai menulis?

Sudah menjadi kebiasaan setiap kali percakapan Rasulullah ada yang akan menjadi jurutulisnya.

akukamudandia

Originally posted by Tie_Nan_Aima at 19-5-2008 09:06 PM
Hmmm ..


Tajuknya tampak seakan menarik, bagus utk perbincangan.

Tetapi pada saya, sepatutnya ia mesti diletak "andai/Tahu Membaca Dan Menulis" merujuk kepada perkataan "Ummi" supaya ia  ...

Pada pendapat aku yg jahil neh..
err.. maap ler aku nak tnya..

mustahil ke bagi seorang yg 'ummi' utk berdagang or mengurus hal ehwal perniagaan?
Lim Goh Tong membina empayar perjudian yang besar hasil kebuta hurufannya.
jadi, in my opinion, tidak mustahil bagi Muhammad utk berdagang..
tambahan pulak berdagang pada 1400 thn yg lalu tidak sama spt berdagang pada zaman sekarang..

correct me if im wrong..




[ Last edited by  akukamudandia at 19-5-2008 10:39 PM ]

mnm77

Ummiy does not mean un-literate. Alternative definition from the dictionaries..are ppl who have never given a Kitab

Definition from dictionaries are from the language of people, and the language can change from time to time. Long time ago, there is classic Arabic, classic English and Classic Malay (contoh prosa klasik), so how could we justify the dictionaries of today is more accurate than the explanation from the language of the people in the pass (the Companions of the Prophet)

Think!

akukamudandia

dipetik dari posting aku yg terdahulu :-

kalimah 'iktataba' dalam surah furqan ayat 5 juga tidak boleh diterjemahkan sewenang-wenangnya kepada makna 'menulis', kerana perkataan yg lebih tepat membawa maksud menulis ialah  'kataba'. saya rujuk kamus arab-melayu, 'iktataba' boleh diterjemah kepadamakna 'minta menulis'.. kerana dalam ayat tersebut juga disebutkan 'fahia tumla'alaihi..' yang bermakna, orang kafir mendakwa, kisah dongeng itu, setelah diminta oleh Nabi supaya dituliskan, ianya dibacakan ke atas Nabi pada waktu pagi dan petang.. (menggunakan SIGHAH MAJHUL atau ayat pasif)..

ade kalimah 'iktataba' atau 'kataba' tak dlm hadis tu..
aku tak tahu bahasa arab ler..
lagi pon aku xbape pandai bab2 hadis nih..

correct me if im wrong..

[ Last edited by  akukamudandia at 19-5-2008 10:53 PM ]