Can Asia unite?

tak apa kalau kau tuduh aku tipu..kenyataan memang pahit untuk diterima...tapi itulah kenyataan yang sebenarnya!

Sephiroth

by WICKED

tak apa kalau kau tuduh aku tipu..kenyataan memang pahit untuk diterima...tapi itulah kenyataan yang sebenarnya!  

Kesilapan seseorang dlm suatu bangsa tidak menunjjukan yg bangsa itu tidak bermoral. ianya menunjjukan seseorang itu (kalau wujud) sesat dlm cara hidup dia.

Tetapi kenyataan yg Muslims bukannya orang Asia tetap tidak berubah walaupun kamu menbebel macam mana pun. ;)

kerosakan moral tersebut ternyata disebabkan kesan terpengaruhnya budaya barat adakah budaya tersebut harus dipraktikkan oleh bangsa asia?

Seraphim

Originally posted by WICKED at 3-6-2004 03:37 PM:


You'll never find the statistic because none of any media covers such a story but i know this thing happen surround me!

Anything that happens surrounding you doesnt mean the same with  the others..That's call generalizing my friend if you assume so

however looking at newspapers and statistics shown in past papers really do prove that mainly Malays who commit rape and incest
Other than that,Chinese people commit mostly piracy activities
and Indians usually have household violence..

You see..this is FACT suported by statistics if you are hardwokring enough to look..
I  dont feel humiliated about it and so should you..and NO..this is not generalizing..

eventhough my claim doesnt support with statistics or proven in the papers or whatsoever but it is a fact that you guys have to accept. few chinese & indian couples live in and stay together before they get married and no body bothers or afraid they might get caught because you dont have such a court like syariah court to take action on those couples.

Sephiroth

by WICKED

kerosakan moral tersebut ternyata disebabkan kesan terpengaruhnya budaya barat adakah budaya tersebut harus dipraktikkan oleh bangsa asia?  

Salah ... budaya barat bukan penyebab sesuatu bangsa jadi mundur dan rosak, ianya kerana tiadanya identiti budaya pd bangsa tersebut. Bukan semua orang dlm sesuatu bangsa itu rosak walaupun mereka terdedah kpd unsur negatif yg sama.

Tak perlu salahkan budaya barat kalau diri sendiri tidak identiti masyarakat ataupun lemah iman. ;) Internet, sains dan teknology dll yg datang dr barat pun boleh katakan budaya barat juga, apasal kamu tak kata ianya merosakan?

eventhough my claim doesnt support with statistics or proven in the papers or whatsoever but it is a fact that you guys have to accept. few chinese & indian couples live in and stay together before they get married and no body bothers or afraid they might get caught because you dont have such a court like syariah court to take action on those couples.  

You suffering brain damage and memory problem? :stp:

I don't remember saying I agree some people lived together before married in Indian and Chinese society. I don't remember Seraphim saying the same either. Don't add statement just because you have none.

And what does your syariah court do? Useless kangoroo court like that is useless in handling social problems, which is why you society sucks.

Your society sucks too when they simply follow western culture whereby the couples live in before they get married and for those who follow this  western culture (im not talking about internet or science & technology here) definetely lose their own identity, So what step you should take to stop your people to follow such culture atleast we have syariah court to take action on the couples. Do you?

I suggest social science students in local uni should make a survey to get statistics on society who live together before they get married and from there we can find out the highest statistic belong to which society!

[ Last edited by WICKED on 4-6-2004 at 09:33 AM ]

Sephiroth

by WICKED

Your society sucks too when they simply follow western culture whereby the couples live in before they get married and for those who follow this  western culture (im not talking about internet or science & technology here) definetely lose their own identity, So what step you should take to stop your people to follow such culture atleast we have syariah court to take action on the couples. Do you?

Hmph ... Go to Indian community places like temples and halls and you will see various social events like dancing (Brathanatayam), singing (Holy songs), etc while in Chinese community, they usually do merit gathering activities or simple community services like cleaning the temple, visit old folk homes and so much more.

What do Muslims do? Yell jilat and land a plane into a building. ;)

I suggest social science students in local uni should make a survey to get statistics on society who live together before they get married and from there we can find out the highest statistic belong to which society!

Sure ... I don't mind looking at statics which will spit at your own society in comparison to Asians ones. :lol

why bother to go to temples to see your society to do such activities. I rather go to the mosque to help other muslims do their zikir & marhaban, you are talking as if we muslims do not have any activity in the mosque

I know it is very hard for you to accept your society who live together before they get married. If you cant accept it...well just fine with me as long as you remember that you or your generation wont do such thing..make sure you and your children get married first before they live together..that's my advice and it is up to you whether you want to follow my advice  or not..it is the only way for you to help your society because you dont have such a syariah court to take the action.

[ Last edited by WICKED on 4-6-2004 at 10:16 AM ]

Sephiroth

by WICKED

why bother to go to temples to see your society to do such activities. I rather go to the mosque to help other muslims do their zikir & marhaban, you are talking as if we muslims do not have any activity in the mosque  

That's the difference between your society and mine ... your society ONLY does what their religion tells them to do, my society does things which will promote unity in the society which is not described in religion. Why? Because that is having identity means.

Muslims have no identity other than what Muhammad have given them. They are not Malays, which is why even things like Gotong Royong also have stopped by your race because man and woman are said to mingle together. You are a puppet without an identity, without a number, without a past. ;)

I know it is very hard for you to accept your society who live together before they get married. If you cant accept it...well just fine with me as long as you remember that you or your generation wont do such thing..make sure you and your children get married first before they live together..that's my advice and it is up to you whether you want to follow my advice  or not..it is the only way for you to help your society because you dont have such a syariah court to take the action.

You daydream about us living in adultery while closing one eyes to all your own societies' mishaps. ;)

Who's babies get dumped into rubbish bins? Muslims. :lol
Who's coming out home-made videos like Pramugara terlampau? Muslims. :lol
Who is running to Thailand just to get marry because of strictness of his/her religion? Muslims. :lol

Keep your advice for your own race.

No doubt your statements are true. I dont deny them the way you've denied the fact about living in adultery for your society. who gives a damn when your society doing such a  conduct like dumbing the babies into the rubbish bin? Who gives a damn about your society making explicit video and who would give a damn if your society running to Thailand to get marry and what really matter who gives a damn when your society living in adultery? NOBODY GIVES A DAMN!

hey why bother to go to thailand  if it is okay for you to be living in adultery, so I guess it is okay for you to keep a baby out of wedlock and abortion is unnessary or throwing babies into the rubbish bin will never happen to your society! So I guess your society and my society are facing a similar problem and it should be stop somewhere before it become synonymous.

We have syariah law to tackle such problems. We use the medium of media to alert people to stop doing such activities and the most important thing is to teach people especially our society the lessons eventhough such a conduct absolutely shameful to the society.

[ Last edited by WICKED on 4-6-2004 at 11:47 AM ]

Sephiroth

by WICKED

No doubt your statements are true. I dont deny them the way you've denied the fact about living in adultery for your society. who gives a damn when your society doing such a  conduct like dumbing the babies into the rubbish bin? Who gives a damn about your society making explicit video and who would give a damn if your society running to Thailand to get marry and what really matter who gives a damn when your society living in adultery? NOBODY GIVES A DAMN!

Why must anyone concern about a social problem which is non-existence? None of the above mentioned problems happens in my society, do you know why? Because my society will scold the person who commit such bigorty, unlike your society.

Your fathers and mothers busy looking for wealth, and sometimes have so much problem with each other that it will cause divorce. They just allow their children to go uneducated with basic manners (which is why Muslims children makes the most noise anywhere they go) and that bad manners become basics of bad attitude later in life. Look at yourself ... lying just so you don't have to agree that you are wrong. :lol Your mummy never taught you not to lie? Your prophet never taught you not to lie? :cak:

hey why bother to go to thailand  if it is okay for you to be living in adultery, so I guess it is okay for you to keep a baby out of wedlock and abortion is unnessary or throwing babies into the rubbish bin will never happen to your society! So I guess your society and my society are facing a similar problem and it should be stop somewhere before it become synonymous.

Hmph ... nonsense ... our religions don't have stupid customs and such which restricts wedding to the extend that some people willing to be caught "tangkap basah" just so the iman could marrying them off.

My society and yours are NOT facing the same problems. Do you know why?

1. You are NOT Asian.
2. We are NOT following an incomplete religion like Islam.
3. We have identity which stops us from performing activities which are bad for the society.

Finally ... you are just animals, which is why sexual problems are such rampant in your society. :ah:

We have syariah law to tackle such problems. We use the medium of media to alert people to stop doing such activities and the most important thing is to teach people especially our society the lessons eventhough such a conduct absolutely shameful to the society.

Your syariah court do crap. :no:
Your media is more toward keeping your pride in tack rather than educating your youngsters.

That is why last time, your leaders like Datuk Mahathir Muhammad used to complain alot about Muslims but your people shut him up by stating that a Muslims should point out mistakes of another Muslim in front of non-Muslims. No wonder he was crying.

Look at TV3 at 8.00 ... they make such a big fuss about "Usahawan muda" from your society ONLY to embarress them again by showing a old people with 20 kids begging for attention next. :lol

John Lennon

Likewise, being Chinese and a Christian is definitely possible.

Being a Chinese Christian means they cannot do what traditional Chinese people do, like ancestor worship, drinking of alcohol, gambling, and partaking in many traditions that are taboo to Christianity like astrology, feng shui and so on.

When I was a Christian, I was told a lot of things were taboo, like even practicing tai chi because it involves "supernatural" elements of "qi" and yoga is satanic because Satan can easily possess you.;)

So, I agree with Seph here. Your only excuse of Christianity strengthening family ties only. Family values isn't just an asian value. It's a universal value. Show us how a Chinese can be Xtian while still maintaining his/her roots.

Secondly, in relation to your quote above, I believe you have miscontrued it. I will explain. Every generation that passes involves a modification in values practiced. For example, my grandparents were of the notion that boys(males) are the 'pride' of a family where girls(females), although they won't drown them in a river, girls to them are considered 'better to serve men in the house only'. Now, what is the source of this thinking? My parents and their generation have completely abandoned this form of thinking regardless of whatever faith they have embraced(in fact, one of my uncle is a very staunch Buddhist). So, does this mean that because they have 'abandoned' this 'typical' Chinese practise, they are no longer Chinese?

wrong example. Male chauvinism was also evident in the west. It is not an "asian" value...only

It works both ways. The numbers of Westerners coming to Asia to learn is more or less equivalent to the number of Asians going to the West to learn more about their culture and values. To say that white men come to Asia because they recognise that our values make them 'spiritually and mentally' stronger is to fall for a myth created by the West. Western society as I perceive now, still has this notion that the Far East has many 'mythical and magical' things. There is a great proportion of people in the West that still thinks resorting to something mythical and magical will instantly solve any problems they have in life...this can be found in the kind of practises such as witchcraft, tarrot cards, fortune tellers etc.

Bollocks. Wicthcraft, tarot cards and stuff were derifed from Western pagan influences like Celtic religions and even Wiccans (if not mistaken). Remember D&D? What about those horoscopes you read in papers?

On the contrary, religions like Buddhism and philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism attracted Westerners because of it's humanistic values which Abrahamic religions like Xtianity is devoid.

Your family seems to be full of male chauvionists (maybe a mistake in spelling here). They seems to have opinion that female are slaves to men. Show me example where females in Hindusm, Buddhism, Shinto and other Asian values which undermined womenfolk.

Not only his family. You must be living under a rock. Like their western counterparts, women have been playing a passive role in society until later half of 20th century.

In fact, why don't you show us any important women leaders in asian civilisations before 20th century?

Sephiroth

by John Lennon

Hmph ... I agree with all but the last statements regarding Asian Women.

Not only his family. You must be living under a rock. Like their western counterparts, women have been playing a passive role in society until later half of 20th century.

In fact, why don't you show us any important women leaders in asian civilisations before 20th century?

Asian women are special breed ... they are not like their counterparts in the West where Women's roles is restricted and men (mostly Male Chauvitist) play more role in their society (because of their religious restrictions as well).

In the past hundreds of years, Asian women have entered war and fought along side Men in battlefield. This is not just now but even during the old ages where it was written in ancient books like Ramayana.

In Japan during Korean/China invasion, it was women folks who stood by men to fight off.

Even now, Asian women in Korea dives for pearls while men sit at home and take care of family.

In China, several accounts of women leading men into battlefield and WIN have been recorded.

In modern times, you can count how many women leaders raised up and lead their countries in Asia - Megawati, Gloria (forgot the full name) of Philiphines, Indra Gandhi, Benazir Bhutto.

THIS are the women who shaped their countries when men couldn't do sh!t. Indonesia were in the gutters till Megawati took over, so was Pakistan till Benazir Bhutto took over.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 24-5-2004 11:05:
by ariyamusafir

Chinese many their marriages ceremony also adopt Western style already but that does not make them less Asian.

How do you know? How many Chinese weddings to you atten ...

You think that you are damn smart. You see, not all malays are Muslims. True. You agree???? Also, some, in fact most of the malays if not all in Malaysia, are muslims, True??? yes!!!! So, these MALAY MUSLIMS WHO ARE ORIGINALLY FROM THE MALAY KEPULAUAN, WHICH IS IN ASIAN REGION, are they or aren't they not Asians? yes they are. Also, So, the concept of muslim are not Asians is irrelevant as a muslim may or may not be an Asian. You are very wrong in many things but you think that you are smart and clever. By the way, I answer according to what I read as there are a lot I need to read back as I have no time to see all and try to see back again and waste more time, SO BACK OFF!!!!!

ariyamusafir

Being a Chinese Christian means they cannot do what traditional Chinese people do, like ancestor worship, drinking of alcohol, gambling, and partaking in many traditions that are taboo to Christianity like astrology, feng shui and so on.

This is for you sephiroth!!! The concept is the same as for Muslim Malays who are Asian. Ching ming, true Chinese Christians cannot go. Mooncake festival too they cannot celebrate.

Sephiroth,

Excuse me ... you misunderstood. I said the Value of Confuciosm is in everday life of Asian, I didn't say everyone follows Confucious.

Confucious took the moral principles of everyday lives and place it for all to see and follow. The values always there and always will be there whether one agrees or not. He only brought it forward when others over look it.

--> That is actually one of my points. My thesis thus far states that Asianitic values does not suddenly miraculously disappear upon embracing Christianity

NOTE: I'll speak from a Christian point of view. I'll let the Muslims here talk about their own faith...but I guess the 'major players' here are only interested in bashing Debmey/SFE   

John Lennon,

Being a Chinese Christian means they cannot do what traditional Chinese people do, like ancestor worship, drinking of alcohol, gambling, and partaking in many traditions that are taboo to Christianity like astrology, feng shui and so on.

When I was a Christian, I was told a lot of things were taboo, like even practicing tai chi because it involves "supernatural" elements of "qi" and yoga is satanic because Satan can easily possess you.

So, I agree with Seph here. Your only excuse of Christianity strengthening family ties only. Family values isn't just an asian value. It's a universal value. Show us how a Chinese can be Xtian while still maintaining his/her roots.

--> First, stop shooting yourself in the foot. Ancestor worship?

"Respect can come in many ways but it is not the form...rather the substance that is important. To illustrate, respecting ancestors, a typical Chinese culture. While Taoist/Buddhist respect their ancestors by burning paper money and offering food, others do not do this. However, respect is duly given by taking care of the burial site, remembering the deeds and moments when they were alive and giving thanks for their contributions that led us to be who we are today."

Drinking alcohol and gambling?

These two elements have been present in mankind since time immemorial...what so Chinese about that?

You speak of feng shui, astrology etc and that is specifically related to Chinese society. The main topic in consideration is Asianitic societies. Do Indians/Vietnamese practice feng shui? Are they a cultural norm in Asia?

Please read the sociological evolution of Asianitic cultures for more understanding.

In regards to Yoga and Taichi, do you JUST listen to what people say without attempting to understand why they say it? This issue alone can cover a whole topic. Rather than debating it out, I would suggest reading up articles, consult those who made those claims, refer to the relevant source to find out for yourself.

Sephiroth,

One can be Buddhist and Shinto followers at the same time despite of the fact that both principles had came from different source altogether. However, one cannot be a Christians and a Muslims at the same time despite of knowing that both come from the same source. In another word, Asian values and Abrahamic religion values are NOT THE SAME in effect.

And No, some religions (especially Abrahamic) do not include scope of Identity. A Muslims is someone who is identified by his clothing, his way of talk, his was of doing about his life and work (and most recently, how many planes he lands into buildings.  ). EACH and EVERY aspect of their lives already planned by their master - Muhammad and they have to be obiedience to his master whether they like it or not. In that context, they will lose the identity of an Asian and took on the identity of a Muslim.

I really don't care the difference or similarities between Christianity and Islam. As far as I know, they are Abrahamic religions and they are not part of Asia and its people.

--> Both Buddhism or Shintoism are different in context and application and you saying just because Abrahamic religions do not come from Asia so they  eradicate Asian values? Your statements seem to make the issue centre more on geography than anything else which you denied saying in your previous posts to Wicked.  

I repeat, to disregard the differences between Christianity and Islam in this context of your discussion renders your points irrelevant.

Both Seph and JL,

Bollocks. Wicthcraft, tarot cards and stuff were derifed from Western pagan influences like Celtic religions and even Wiccans (if not mistaken). Remember D&D? What about those horoscopes you read in papers?

On the contrary, religions like Buddhism and philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism attracted Westerners because of it's humanistic values which Abrahamic religions like Xtianity is devoid.

--> Tying in both of your responces. Firstly, I did not say that Westerners believe that Asian people could pull rabbits out of hats. The interaction of cultures, one one hand, Westerners are intrigued with the cultures of Asia, likewise, the Asians are intrigued/awed by the achievements of the Westerners; thus it is a 'mutual exchange'. To say that Westerners come to Asia just to learn its cultures is to repeat what Seph said, "I do not know which hole you crawled out from".

Seph,

When did I say one cannot lose their roots upon embracing a religion? It strictly depends on whether a religion comes from Asia or not.

If an atheist discard tradition and culture as useless ... then he is an atheist. What else is he? He choose to become an atheist. He is no longer Chinese other than physically.

And yes, a lot of Asians losing their culture beliefs and adapt useless and spiritually tainted religions like Abrahamic Religions. They still hold on to the invaders' principles (since it was brought by invaders from Europe about 500 years ago) and forgot their own places in the society. Materialistic values have become a way of life and to some people this is the only way one should live. Is this Asian Values which brought by people like Confucious? And Buddha? NO.

--> ...I do not know where you crawled out from either but ok Seph....to you I'll confess. I am not Chinese ok? I am a Christian and I have lost all my Asianitic values. ;)

Your family seems to be full of male chauvionists (maybe a mistake in spelling here). They seems to have opinion that female are slaves to men. Show me example where females in Hindusm, Buddhism, Shinto and other Asian values which undermined womenfolk.

It is true that men take the centre stage and most of the time women are behind. This is because of their physical weakness and the fact that they are emotionally unbalance at some times.

--> From the statement above, I can safely say that whatever you are, Seph, you are definitely not Chinese. Please lah...do you have grandparents or great-grandparents? If yes, have you ever talked to them? If not, please do. You could also READ up the role of women in ancient China and their evolution of role.

For goodness sake lah, please read up lah, don't just tembak your mouth away.

[ Last edited by WinterNights on 5-6-2004 at 07:50 PM ]

Seraphim

Originally posted by WICKED at 4-6-2004 11:33 AM:
No doubt your statements are true. I dont deny them the way you've denied the fact about living in adultery for your society. who gives a damn when your society doing such a  conduct like dumbing the babies into the rubbish bin? Who gives a damn about your society making explicit video and who would give a damn if your society running to Thailand to get marry and what really matter who gives a damn when your society living in adultery? NOBODY GIVES A DAMN!

No statistics,no proof ...mere speculations..seriously i dont give a damn if you dont give a damn...You need to really open your eyes and check which society in trouble here...:lol

Originally posted by WICKED at 4-6-2004 11:33 AM:
hey why bother to go to thailand  if it is okay for you to be living in adultery, so I guess it is okay for you to keep a baby out of wedlock and abortion is unnessary or throwing babies into the rubbish bin will never happen to your society! So I guess your society and my society are facing a similar problem and it should be stop somewhere before it become synonymous.

Adultery?Any proof besides granpa stories or some market gossips?? And no it's not OK to have baby out of wedlock...Throwing babis in trash can never actually done...Abortion only done when it's because of health or other problems deem legal...And no your society does experienced  problem like rape and incest which is not similar with the rest...I guess sometimes you dont even need to go to Thailand to "release",just do it with your sister and daiughters..If i use your kind of defected logic:lol

Originally posted by WICKED at 4-6-2004 11:33 AM:
We have syariah law to tackle such problems. We use the medium of media to alert people to stop doing such activities and the most important thing is to teach people especially our society the lessons eventhough such a conduct absolutely shameful to the society..

Syariah law is good..however no laws can do anything if the individuals dont want to follow...

by sephiroth
Your fathers and mothers busy looking for wealth, and sometimes have so much problem with each other that it will cause divorce. They just allow their children to go uneducated with basic manners (which is why Muslims children makes the most noise anywhere they go) and that bad manners become basics of bad attitude later in life. Look at yourself ... lying just so you don't have to agree that you are wrong.  Your mummy never taught you not to lie? Your prophet never taught you not to lie?

your father  always drunk & cant avoid drinking todi...and when  he gets angry he smacks your momma & you too. No wonder i can see you turn out to be so rebellious because it is how you've been living in the past and Im  not surprise you'll be like your father too and treat your wife & children the same way, that's how indian society being raised and how they start to involve with gangsterism! because it runs in the blood, run in the families unless if you willing to change the attitude!

[ Last edited by WICKED on 7-6-2004 at 09:17 AM ]

Sephiroth

by WinterNights

And No, some religions (especially Abrahamic) do not include scope of Identity. A Muslims is someone who is identified by his clothing, his way of talk, his was of doing about his life and work (and most recently, how many planes he lands into buildings.  ). EACH and EVERY aspect of their lives already planned by their master - Muhammad and they have to be obiedience to his master whether they like it or not. In that context, they will lose the identity of an Asian and took on the identity of a Muslim.  

You said SOME religions (including Abrahamic) do not include scope of Identity. Show me what other religion OTHER than Abrahamic Religion do not include scope of Identity into their faith.

As for Muslims losing the identity of an Asian and taking on the identity of Muslim, that is TRUE which is why Muslims are not to be considered Asian at all.

--> Both Buddhism or Shintoism are different in context and application and you saying just because Abrahamic religions do not come from Asia so they  eradicate Asian values? Your statements seem to make the issue centre more on geography than anything else which you denied saying in your previous posts to Wicked.  

Buddhism and Shintosm ARE different in context and application BUT THEY WORK SIDE BY SIDE TOGETHER to form a proper society without the society losing the values of its Identity.

Shintosm is about approaching God through Nature. Buddhism is almost atheist-like in approach to spiritualism and more toward personal developments. Each contribute something to another and do not erase anything from one another.

Not only Shintosm, same with Hindusm where Buddhist and Hindus live side by side without giving problems to each other or erasing one another's identity in India and in Malaysia. Same as Buddhism and Toasm in China which is similar to Shintosm.

THIS is Asian values. Each his own, one do not force his or her value onto others just so they could feel that they are correct like what Abrahamic religions are doing. That is why Muslims and Christians are NOT Asians.


--> ...I do not know where you crawled out from either but ok Seph....to you I'll confess. I am not Chinese ok? I am a Christian and I have lost all my Asianitic values.

OK ... thank you.


--> From the statement above, I can safely say that whatever you are, Seph, you are definitely not Chinese. Please lah...do you have grandparents or great-grandparents? If yes, have you ever talked to them? If not, please do. You could also READ up the role of women in ancient China and their evolution of role.

For goodness sake lah, please read up lah, don't just tembak your mouth away.

And why did you say I'm not Chinese? Because I didn't qoute any great Chinese females which helped China got up to its feet again?

And we were talking about your uncle, NOT my grandparents. ;)