What Soora 2:23 really says to SFE Talk?

Debmey

So where? where are the objective criteria you talked about?
Cannot make sense of sura 2:23?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-2-3 09:30 AM:
So where? where are the objective criteria you talked about?
Cannot make sense of sura 2:23?

if you cannot make sense of the 2:23, then why cry wolf in the first place?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Nobody can make sense of the Quran. It just doesn't make any sense. The worst part is, Muslims like Fuzzman did not even bother to try. hahahahahahahaha................

cheers

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-2-4 12:20 AM:
Nobody can make sense of the Quran. It just doesn't make any sense. The worst part is, Muslims like Fuzzman did not even bother to try. hahahahahahahaha................cheers

Sonny~~ wrote:- the lesson of this merry go round is dont challenge others faith unless u r well versed with it.  simple
as FUZZs wisely put it - know your enemy well  

You should have taken Sonny~~'s advice and left in dignity, instead of squirming in defenceless defeat.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

We still don't see Fuzzman even attempting to make sense of the Quran. So where? Where are the objective criteria for the challenge?

kyas

wow... this will be endless

Debmey

Not until Muslims can make sense of the Quran. Uptill now, Fuzzman did not even try. How abt yu helping him?

kyas

lost track olredi lah... too long to read... i believe this is between u and fuzz... i no need to help u or fuzz .. hahah...

Debmey

but it concerns your Quran. Your Quran have been proven nonsensical and Fuzzman is helpless in defending the Muslim holy book. Fuzzy made a spectacle out of it by pushing it for more than a dozen pages. Fuzzy needs all the help he can get boy. You better give him a hand.

Fuzzman

Kyas is right. This thread is a personal vendetta between SFEakaDeb and me. For you guys out there, reward your curiosity with the way I put SFEakaDeb in really tight corners. The only perosn helpless here is SFEakaDEb himself. Even Sonny~~ has refused my offer to him to go help SFEakaDeb. In fact Sonny~~ gave SFE one mighty ticking off. If I'm the one that's "helpless", then how is it that you haven't got beyond your objective criteria wolf-cry? LOL.

We have collectively agree that OBJECTIVE CRITERIA was meant to be this:-
A standard or a test formulated on an observable phenomena; presented factually on which a decision can be made.

And that this objective criteria agreement was meant to cover soora 2:23 which reads this:-
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Therefore based on the 2:23, the objective criteria worked out by Fuzzman correctly reflects this:-
" To create a chapter in likeness to any chosen soora with the assistance of your helpers from your faith who are directly your witnesses if and when you are in doubt that the Quran was not from Allah but the creation of Prophet Mohammad."

You should have gotten this picture ways back but you chose the easy path of pre-meditated ignorance. So when are you going to start addressing the 2:23 after my appendation of the objective criteria that truthfully reflects the 2:23?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

In the meantime, no Muslim has yet to give us even a single objective criteria for the challenge.
The Quran remains senseless and Muslims silly.

peace

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-2-5 09:06 AM:
In the meantime, no Muslim has yet to give us even a single objective criteria for the challenge. The Quran remains senseless and Muslims silly.peace

The Quran has beaten SFEakaDEB senseless and he now looks silly because he cannot even get past the objective criteria put up by Fuzzman. What a joke of the century this really is?  SFEakaDEB is behaving like a spoilt tape recorder that keeps rewinding the same tune all the time. Of course we all know where spoilt and obselete tape recorders belong don't we? LOL

Come on SFEakaDEB, where is your challenge? I'm still waiting.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

So where? Where are the objective criteria for the sura like it challenge?
Can any muslim make sense of the Quran?" Would any Muslim even dare to try?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-2-6 08:28 PM:
So where? Where are the objective criteria for the sura like it challenge?
Can any muslim make sense of the Quran?" Would any Muslim even dare to try?

The objective criteria of soora 2:23 is for the doubtor to create a new verse or chapter based on the format of the Quran, to be implemeted upon  a new finding or belief system that truthfully rivals or supercedes the Quran in a collaborative effort amongst the doubtors own helpers from his faith, who are eventually the judges of that literary work.

which is in line with Fuzzman's objective criteria which reads the following -
" To create a chapter in likeness to any chosen soora with the assistance of your helpers from your faith who are directly your witnesses if and when you are in doubt that the Quran was not from Allah but the creation of Prophet Mohammad."

which is taken from the aspirations of the soora 2:23 which reads the following -
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Can SFEakaDEB make sense of his argument? Would SFEakaDEB ever dare to even try?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

The objective criteria of soora 2:23 is for the doubtor to create a new verse or chapter based on the format of the Quran, to be implemeted upon  a new finding or belief system that truthfully rivals or supercedes the Quran in a collaborative effort amongst the doubtors own helpers from his faith, who are eventually the judges of that literary work.  

which is in line with Fuzzman's objective criteria which reads the following -
" To create a chapter in likeness to any chosen soora with the assistance of your helpers from your faith who are directly your witnesses if and when you are in doubt that the Quran was not from Allah but the creation of Prophet Mohammad."

We know that. But what are the criteria of likeness that can be objectively measured so that we can compare if I win or not?

Besides, which passage from the Quran do you want us to challenge. Since the Quran does not specify, can I get to choose the verse that I want to challenge?

which is taken from the aspirations of the soora 2:23 which reads the following -
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Can SFEakaDEB make sense of his argument? Would SFEakaDEB ever dare to even try?

Exactly, thats why yu need to produce the necessary objective criteria so that I can challenge it, so stop beating around the bush. Ready when yu are.

Fuzzman

Deb wrote: We know that. But what are the criteria of likeness that can be objectively measured so that we can compare if I win or not?

If you base your doubts on the primary goal of just wanting to just win at all cost, without the genuine intention of seeking the truth, then you're in for bigger disappointments. The soora 2:23 has no prizes to award, nor certificates of endorsements to give. Just pure satisfaction of achieving truth is more rewarding than the want to win at all costs. The 2:23 merely and most simply asks the doubtor to create in parrallel as seen and read in any verse of Quran, a similiar content in parrallel of its historical and religious virtues without plagiating its Quranic verses.

If you understand the call of the 2:23, you will definately see a paradigm building within that call. And that paradigm is this - the call to understand Quran. Any smart person will know that it would be impossible to just -poof like that- create a verse in comparison out of nothing to superceed Quran if you do not have an understanding of Quran. It would be nothing short of a meaningless feat if the doubtor's created verse suffers a "hang" with no begining nor end, by just attempting one verse or chapter.

But there is a way around this probelm. That's where I had asked this - do you know your enemy well- some time back. The Quran that was sent is interlocked with events of the early patriachs. Seemless and perfect in narration. Something of a GOB essence where God and Allah reign supreme as the sole Creator.

This I believe must satisfy your craving for the criteria of likeness and thus provide some inroads into your chaos.

Deb wrote: Besides, which passage from the Quran do you want us to challenge. Since the Quran does not specify, can I get to choose the verse that I want to challenge?

What do you understand by - a chapter like it- ? Let me help you out here. It means any chapter you choose. Choose a chapter and that's it - go work your challenge on it.

Deb wrote: Exactly, thats why yu need to produce the necessary objective criteria so that I can challenge it, so stop beating around the bush. Ready when yu are.

I'm a very patient person. That is why I'm still with you on this subject. The objective criteria is this - to produce a chapter like it with helpers from your own faith. There's this sentence that come off when we play this racing game in the Genting Highlands theme park and it sounds like this to acknowledge the start of a formidable challenge - Gentlemen, start your engines. - so I guess this line applies to you now.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 7-2-2004 at 07:49 PM ]

Debmey

So what exactly is your criterai for perfection? Any objective criteria? Where are teh objective criteria for teh challenge?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-2-7 10:30 AM:
So what exactly is your criterai for perfection?

Understand the Quran well as in know your enemy well.

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-2-7 10.30 AM:
Any objective criteria?

My most simplest answer to you is just this:
1. TO CREATE THE UNCREATED THAT HAS THE QUALITIES OF THE CREATED.
2.  TO PRODUCE A CHAPTER LIKE IT WITH HELPERS FROM YOUR OWN FAITH.
Just let me know if you need me to repeat this line again.

Originally posted byDebmey at 2004-2-7 10.30 AM:
Where are teh objective criteria for teh challenge?

Here it is again.
" To create a chapter in likeness to any chosen soora with the assistance of your helpers from your faith who are directly your witnesses if and when you are in doubt that the Quran was not from Allah but the creation of Prophet Mohammad."
which originates from soora 2:23 which reads like this -
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Time to get your challenge going. Just start your engines and be seeing you at that next pit stop.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 7-2-2004 at 10:50 AM ]

Fuzzman

OK Deb, let's dance a different step for the same tune since I see you're still stuck even though we've been far along down this trodden path of the objective criteria to which you don't have a clue for a solution.

Tell me then, how will you base your defence or exposure of the 2:23 ?  What literature or reading would you use for your challenge? What is the compatibility of the literature of your choice?

ARI FUZZMAN

Fuzzman

Come on Debmey, you can do better than running away can you? So what is the compatible literature of your choice?

ARI FUZZMAN