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[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?
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I don't think Chinese have a culture of marrying 9 year olds.
Just because it was acceptable culture does not mean it is right thing to do.
Carnibalism was acceptable culturally too among South American Indians, does that make it divine?
[ Last edited by Debmey on 3-3-2005 at 03:15 PM ] |
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Originally posted by samerosie at 3-3-2005 01:44 PM:
And in case YOU don't know, the sign of puberty (adulthood) had always been taken as the first menstrual of girls. Look at those website links I gave you, they are all about "reaching puberty" and age of girls when they have their first menstrual, some as soon as 8-9 years old and some as late as 14-16 years of age.
What crap are you trying to spill here. I'm trying to prove to you that the first sign of puberty, first cycle of mens is not the sign of adulthood. First cycle of mens doesnt mean the girl is ready to reproduce or sexually matured.
From "Adolescence", by L. Steinberg, pub. by McGraw Hill, 1993.
page 26: "The effects of the endocrinological changes of puberty on the adolescent's body are remarkable. Consider the dramatic changes in physical appearance that occur during the short span of early adolescence. One enters puberty looking like a child and within FOUR years or so has the physical appearance of a young adult."
page 32: "Generally, full reproduction function does not occur until several years after menarche, and regular ovulation follows menarche by about two years (Hafetz, 1976)....
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http://www.shands.org/health/information/article/001950.htm
Puberty and adolescence
Definition:
Puberty refers to the period of sexual maturation. Puberty is when the child experiences physical, hormonal, and sexual changes and becomes capable of reproduction. It is associated with rapid growth and the appearance of secondary sexual characteristics.
Adolescence is the period of transition between puberty and adulthood.
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From the World Book Ency. under "Sex" on page 333 regarding puberty:
"Puberty is the period of rapid growth that marks the end of childhood and the beginning of physical and sexual maturity (full development).
From the World Book Ency. under "Adolescent", page 61:
"Most girls start puberty at about age 11. Most boys start at about age 13. Puberty ends when a girl or boy reaches sexual maturity - that is, becomes capable of reproduction. Most adolescents are sexually mature TWO OR THREE YEARS AFTER they start puberty."
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Now imagine this, muhammad waited for 3 years in his marriage to aisha, when she had her first mens, muhammad thought that aisha was sexually matured and ready for sex. Obviously Muhammad was wrong. period.
And samerosie, you havent answered me, did aisha at tha age of 6, reached puberty when she marries muhammad.
[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 3-3-2005 at 04:06 PM ] |
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KENNKID This user has been deleted
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Every moment of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)'s life is a splendid example for the faithful to follow.
With his conversations with the faithful, the way he addressed them, his sense of humour, his affection for and interest in children, the just way he treated women and his affection and concern, he was a model protector, both for his family and for all Muslims.
That, by his smiling face, joyful countenance, and his consideration and affection for the faithful, he is an important example of proper morality and an ideal model of humanity.
 http://www.theprophetmuhammad.org/life.html |
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samerosie This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by Debmey at 3-3-2005 03:13 PM:
I don't think Chinese have a culture of marrying 9 year olds.
You are truly a classique imbecile. The discussion here is not 9, but puberty which coincidently for Aisha was at that age.
Anyways, nah ambik kau!
http://www2.rz.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUS/CHINA.HTM
However, 搉 contrast to India, child marriages were exceptional in China, although the betrothal of small and even unborn children, while illegal, was common (Lang, 1946:p36; Wolf, 1980)[13]. According to Fei (1939:p40)[14], arrangements for marriage were made at age six or seven.
Most Lolo groups marry at puberty, although 搒ome Lolos marry quite early, even at the age of four to five years |
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samerosie This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 3-3-2005 03:30 PM:
What crap are you trying to spill here. I'm trying to prove to you that the first sign of puberty, first cycle of mens is not the sign of adulthood. First cycle of mens doesnt mean the girl is ...
I gave you all the links. I even gave the definition of puberty according to the decretales (Christian law). You are just beating around the bush. You ignored the fact that in ancient society and tradition, that was commonly accepted. Even todate one tradition to welcome their daughters into adulthood when they get their first menstrual is still celebrated by the Hindu community in Malaysia.
It is only recently that it is accepted that first menstruation does not signify adulthood.
Betrothal and marriage has different meaning. I ask you again, why did Mohammad waited 3 years to consumate the marriage? And also according to the bible, marriage means "becoming into one flesh with each other". Did he became one flesh with Aisha when she was six? 3 years was the betrothal period and the marriage was consumated when she reached puberty. It is only right that Mohammad seeked her father's consent for the betrothal with her.
Have you seen Dato' Prof Khoo Kay Kim yet?
[ Last edited by samerosie on 3-3-2005 at 04:54 PM ] |
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KENNKID This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by samerosie at 2005-3-3 04:08 PM:
You are truly a classique imbecile. The discussion here is not 9, but puberty which coincidently for Aisha was at that age.
Anyways, nah ambik kau!
[url]http://www2.rz.hu-berlin.de/sex ...
Well done Samerosie.  |
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samerosie This user has been deleted
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Thanks. Tak faham betul about all the fuss. Ancient tradition and culture cannot be compared to current trend and culture. What was acceptable then may not be acceptable now, and what is acceptable now may not be acceptable then. I'm sure if someone were to wear spagetti string and minis, they would be clobbered to death in the 7th century by the elders. |
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KENNKID This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by samerosie at 2005-3-3 04:58 PM:
Thanks. Tak faham betul about all the fuss. Ancient tradition and culture cannot be compared to current trend and culture. What was acceptable then may not be acceptable now, and what is acceptab ...
Done on purpose, Samerosie.
Muslims are taught by the Prophet (may God抯 peace and mercy be upon him) that in the eyes of God, every deed is valued according to the intention behind it (Hadith: anima-allamal-bel-niat).
In the same Hadith, he says that every journey in life; be it physical, mental or spiritual is valued according to the truth or righteousness of the cause behind it. Thus the nobler the intention and cause behind a given action, the higher God Almighty values that action, resulting in greater divine rewards in this life and the hereafter. |
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Originally posted by samerosie at 3-3-2005 04:43 PM:
I gave you all the links. I even gave the definition of puberty according to the decretales (Christian law). You are just beating around the bush. You ignored the fact that in ancient societ ...
No dear same, you are ignoring mine. Did i ever ignored the fact that culture back then disaprove marriage to a child? We have to judge muhammad in our current time, because we live in this century. And in our current times, muhammad will be jailed instantly for having sex with a minor or statutory rape.
It is only recently that it is accepted that first menstruation does not signify adulthood.
Why just recently? I've given you proof that the first sign of mens, does not signify adulthood. The links that you provided are backing up my points. I suggest you read them yourself.
Betrothal and marriage has different meaning. I ask you again, why did Mohammad waited 3 years to consumate the marriage? And also according to the bible, marriage means "becoming into one flesh with each other". Did he became one flesh with Aisha when she was six? 3 years was the betrothal period and the marriage was consumated when she reached puberty. It is only right that Mohammad seeked her father's consent for the betrothal with her.
So which one is it? Betrothal or marriage?
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Why muhammad waited three years before consumating her? i have no idea. Why not tell us here? Btw how do you know aisha reached puberty at aged 9?
[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 3-3-2005 at 07:31 PM ] |
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samerosie This user has been deleted
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No dear same, you are ignoring mine. Did i ever ignored the fact that culture back then disaprove marriage to a child?
No, the culture back then did not dissaprove marriage to a child provided the child had reached puberty. Can you proof that the marriage was dissaproved?
We have to judge muhammad in our current time, because we live in this century. And in our current times, muhammad will be jailed instantly for having sex with a minor or statutory rape.
No, we cannot judge Mohammad with the laws of the 21st century, that would be absurd because he lived in the 7th century. So, time and time again as I have asked you, do you think if Mohammad had lived in OUR time, in this 21st century, do you think he would have married a 9 years old? No, because it is not acceptable now, IF he had lived in this current year.
Why just recently? I've given you proof that the first sign of mens, does not signify adulthood. The links that you provided are backing up my points. I suggest you read them yourself.
You cannot comprehend because you are judging by your 21st century culture. It was acceptable back then IN THE 7TH CENTURY, because it was a culture, like I said, the norm. Had YOU lived in the 7th Century as a girl, you would be married off as soon as you had your first menses. It was a practised tradition. How would you back then living in the 7th Century know that it is now not acceptable by the 21st century people?
So which one is it? Betrothal or marriage?
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Very good although your failed to quote the other hadiths by the same author as narrated by Aisha that she was married at 7 years old and the other one that she said she was married off to the Prophet, sent by her mother to the house of the Prophet and the Prophet came to her in the afternoon WITHOUT mentioning her age.
There was not consumation of the zawaj thus when Mohammad asked Abu Bakar for her hand in marriage. It was a betrothal, in laymen's term, engagement.
Why muhammad waited three years before consumating her? i have no idea. Why not tell us here? Btw how do you know aisha reached puberty at aged 9?
I have told you why. This is going to be my last time as I have again and again explained it to you. It was the norm practised culture then, to wait for a girl to reach puberty before formalizing the marriage, it also was necessary to be betrothed so that any other person who was interested to marry her would know that she was "not available" anymore. |
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No, the culture back then did not dissaprove marriage to a child provided the child had reached puberty. Can you proof that the marriage was dissaproved?
Forgive me, it was a typo, what i meant was "did i ever ignored the fact that culture back then aproved ..."
Yes, such marriage at that time was not dissaproved.
No, we cannot judge Mohammad with the laws of the 21st century, that would be absurd because he lived in the 7th century. So, time and time again as I have asked you, do you think if Mohammad had lived in OUR time, in this 21st century, do you think he would have married a 9 years old? No, because it is not acceptable now, IF he had lived in this current year.
Yes, muhammad lived in the 7th century, why put him in our century? The point i was making is, muhammad the seal of prophets, God inspired, should know best NOT to engaged to such marriage because it will be condemned in the 21st century. The fact remains, his marriage to aisha will be condemned in our time thus muhammad is NOT the perfect example for all time.
You cannot comprehend because you are judging by your 21st century culture. It was acceptable back then IN THE 7TH CENTURY, because it was a culture, like I said, the norm. Had YOU lived in the 7th Century as a girl, you would be married off as soon as you had your first menses. It was a practised tradition. How would you back then living in the 7th Century know that it is now not acceptable by the 21st century people?
It is you that can't comprehend the scientific proof. If this knowledge was available in the 7th century, we wont have a 53 year old man marrying a 6 year old, wont we?
Very good although your failed to quote the other hadiths by the same author as narrated by Aisha that she was married at 7 years old and the other one that she said she was married off to the Prophet, sent by her mother to the house of the Prophet and the Prophet came to her in the afternoon WITHOUT mentioning her age.
There was not consumation of the zawaj thus when Mohammad asked Abu Bakar for her hand in marriage. It was a betrothal, in laymen's term, engagement.
That is why i asked, betrothal or marriage? Here we have hadith contradicting it self. One says marriage, the other says betrothal. Some suggest aisha was 14 when she married muhammad. So is this how it works? Discredit the 'marriage' part and accept the 'betrothal' instead so it will look good for muhammad. Pathetic.
I have told you why. This is going to be my last time as I have again and again explained it to you. It was the norm practised culture then, to wait for a girl to reach puberty before formalizing the marriage, it also was necessary to be betrothed so that any other person who was interested to marry her would know that she was "not available" anymore.
So you're using this as proof of aisha have reached puberty? You forget one thing though, she was still playing with dolls when the marriage occurs. Go ahead, do your reseach in arab culture, only girls that havent reach puberty are allowed to play with dolls.
[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 4-3-2005 at 08:39 AM ] |
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Originally posted by samerosie at 2005-3-3 04:43 PM:
Betrothal and marriage has different meaning. I ask you again, why did Mohammad waited 3 years to consumate the marriage?
The reason why p.Muhammad waited so long to consummate the marriage could be due to the fact that Aisha was down with some sickness.
Aisha fall sick after she was engaged to p.Muhammad. She had contracted some sort of disease that cause her hairs to fall. Aisha says in the hadiths that her hair had grew back when P.Muhammad cannot tahan anymore and he had to boink her. She was busy playing on a swing, when the "splendid example for the faithful to follow" came in the forenoon and took her cherry away.
ref:Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234.
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DivinePonytail wrote: The fact remains, his marriage to aisha will be condemned in our time thus muhammad is NOT the perfect example for all time.
Looks like DivinePonytail got lost in translation? You admit two very important things here. HIS marriage which was. Hs marriage that was ACCEPTABLE IN HIS TIME BUT NOT OURS! How can something that is "common place in HIS time be not a perfect example for all time"? No wonder you 'neverminded" the verses from Numbers? Debmey's gonna hit you really hard on the head for this statement. You just "Claymore-ed" your paedophlia case on Prophet Mohammad out of the window. Finally you shewed the root cause of your ignorance. You can't compare the past with the present. Thank you DivinePonytail. You made my day.
ARI FUZZMAN
[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 4-3-2005 at 01:34 AM ] |
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FaithHeckler wrote: Well.. let me fill in the blanks..
The kinda of blanks that you wanna fill in don't mean nothing bro! Just don't mean nothing. None at all, because your "theoratical theories" never pass the acid test. It's all your very own personal point of views, that aren't either approved by credible sources or have proven standings. You go on to quote only Bukhari, when you think you got something going in pinning the prophet, but you overlook in toto the overall narratives of Bukhari. The kind of "blank fillers" that you possess are the same in nature as your thoughts. Just shooting blanks all the way! So what kinda pea-shooter you're using for the shoot? LOL
ARI FUZZMAN
[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 4-3-2005 at 01:39 AM ] |
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Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-3-4 01:30 AM:
The kinda of blanks that you wanna fill in don't mean nothing bro! Just don't mean nothing. None at all, because your "theoratical theories" nev ...
That ain't no theory dude, its a fact, according to Imam Bukhari.
Imam Bukhari is numero-uno when it comes to recording the crazy things p.Muhammad had said and done.
Bukhari's collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).
ref: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fund ... khari/sbtintro.html
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Originally posted by Fuzzman at 4-3-2005 01:21 AM:
Looks like DivinePonytail got lost in translation? You admit two very important things here. HIS marriage which was. Hs marriage that was ACCEPTABLE IN HI ...
Before you run your mouth, i suggest you read through all that have been posted here, Never did once i deny muhammad marriage to aisha, you guys have to make sure what age aisha was married 6,7, 9 or 14. Never did i said it was not acceptable in the 7th century.
Digest this, cannibalism and slavery were culture norms back then. Does the changes in time to our current century somehow changes the meanings? NO its still cannibalism and slavery. Does culture norm make it right? If Muhammad was thinking with his brains rather than his 'private' member, he would forsee the problem he created in the 21st century. You guys wont have to defend his act of pedophilia.
Let me ask you this FUZZMAN, would you marry a 6,7, or 9 year old to follow the footstep of the perfect example of man for all time, muhammad? |
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Originally posted by samerosie at 2005-3-2 06:07 PM:
Can't you read properly? Oh, you're twisting the fact.
"The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females, under penalty of nullity (UNLESS NATURAL PUBERTY SUPPLIES THE WANT OF YEARS). Which means, if the girl reaches puberty before the age of 12, she is able and can and allowed to be married.
...as you can see and read the sub title says "ORDINARY CHRISTIAN LIFE", then you are denying the truth just like when you said the Muslims are. |
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Fuzzman would if he has the opportunity cos he would say Mo did it and set an example for mankind according to allah's will. . |
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The Qur'an (4:21) refers to marriage as a mithaq, i.e. a solemn covenant or agreement between husband and wife, and enjoins that it be put down in writing. Since no agreement can be reached between the parties unless they give their consent to it, marriage can be contracted only with the free consent of the two parties. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,
"The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained." (AlBukhari)
This aspect is greatly emphasized by Imam Bukhari. He, in fact, gave one of the chapters in his Sahih the significant title:
"When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud). |
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Aisha was a six year old, she couldn't disagree even if she wanted. Come to think of it, she confessed that she didn't even know what was happening. |
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Post time 3-3-2005 03:13 PM
