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Where? Where are the objective criteria?
The Quran does not give any objective criteria for the challenge.
The challenge is therefore invalid. Its as simple as that.
If Muslims still want to use 2:23 to challenge others, the burden is therefore on you Muslims to come up with a set of reasonable objective criteria.
So where? Where are the objective criteria for the sura like it challenge?
I'll make it easy for you Muslims. Lets start with which sura should we compare? How long should the sura be? What is the definition of a sura?
The Quran has no clue.
Can we pick any verse from the Quran as we like since its an open challenge? You want me to choose the sura myself? |
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Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-1-27 11:47 PM:
Where? Where are the objective criteria?
The Quran does not give any objective criteria for the challenge.
The challenge is therefore invalid. Its as simple as that.
If Muslims stil ...
its in page 1 - 21
dont be lazy to read thoroughly n intelligently
take up ur own challenge seriously for once
otherwise dont try to challenge wot u're foggy bout 
peace |
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I read thru it all, no objective criteria given even after more than 20 pages. |
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Originally posted by sonny~~ at 27-1-2005 11:42 PM:
the objective criteria is there alright as FUZZ has elaborated many a time but u insist to heckle blind to keep dot dot dot erect
peace
:setuju:
tapi bagi orang yang dah tak boleh nak terima.... teranglah macam mana pun..... mmg tak dapat punya :lol
mcm zaman sekolah dulu... kalo tak suka dekat cikgu..... apa yang dia cakap and ajar pun tak masuk otak ( this one nak kena ada verse dalam Quran jugak ke? ):pmuka: |
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Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-1-28 12:37 AM:
I read thru it all, no objective criteria given even after more than 20 pages.
Do you still remember this proverb which I had chalked up especially for you that can be found somewhere from page 1 to 18 that reads :-
YOU CAN BRING A DONKEY TO A WATER TROUGH BUT YOU CAN'T FORCE THE DONKEY TO DRINK FROM IT
Looks like proverbs have a knack of resurfacing for your benefit when the need warrants it, and the one above is the perfect proverb that carries a objective criteria meant just for you! LOL.
ARI FUZZMAN |
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Originally posted by Baiduri Othman at 2005-1-27 10:48 PM:
This thread is getting interesting & interesting. Too bad, I can't contribute anything b'coz I don't have the knowledge. Salam to Fuzzman, Zy & Snipersnake. To Fuzzman, thanks for the online Quranic reciter.
Great to know that you will utilising the reciter to the fullest for your benefit.
ARI FUZZMAN |
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Debmey wrote: The Quran does not give any objective criteria for the challenge. The challenge is therefore invalid. Its as simple as that.
The Quran never issued any challenges at all. Only the mis-informed and the ill-knowledged will see the 2:23 as a challenge. It is a challenge to those who cannot overcome it. Just as walking up a steep mountain pass is a challenge to a person with cardiac heart probelms. That is the truth.
Debmey wrote: If Muslims still want to use 2:23 to challenge others, the burden is therefore on you Muslims to come up with a set of reasonable objective criteria.
I don't think there are Moslems who see the 2:23 as a so-called challenge. From what I can see the only challenge set out to you from Moslems from this board were merely on a personal basis directed only for you and not the whole of Christiandom. I have read of them challenging you to take on the 2:23 and nothing more beyond that. As for the objective criteria, the 2:23 is the most simplistic and most reasonable set of sentences put together to afford that criteria. Something which has been mentioned to you many scores ago.
Debmey wrote:So where? Where are the objective criteria for the sura like it challenge?
Soora 2:23 : And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
Debmey wrote: I'll make it easy for you Muslims. Lets start with which sura should we compare? How long should the sura be? What is the definition of a sura?
The Quran has no clue.
Let me make it really easy for you.
1. You can use any soora you wish.
2. Logic will tell you that the length will follow the soora of your choice.
3. The defination of a soora is any verses in the Quran, be it a verse, a paragraph or a chapter found in the Quran.
4. Comparison is not a criteria in the 2:23, but however you are required to produce a soora like it of the one you choose and not of it. Do you know what means "LIKE IT" and " OF IT " ? Once you have created a soora "like it" then only can you compare "of it" with the true original soora you have chosen to see whether you have produced something that can prove the Quran to be the work of Man. And Allah the All Merciful and the All Knowing has even granted you the handicap of witnesses that can be chosen from your faith to unbiasly gauge your handiwork.
Debmey wrote: Can we pick any verse from the Quran as we like since its an open challenge? You want me to choose the sura myself?
Yes you can. Yes you can. Start choosing now and go forth creating an identical soora like it and not of it.
Let's get it started in here. Let's get it started in here.
Whooo Hoooo.. It's hot.
Let's get it started in here. Whoo Hooo
Let's get it started in here. Who Hoo Whoo Hooo...
Debbo's gonna start a soora. Whoo Hooo
Fuzzy's gonna shout out hoooraaa.. Whoo Hoooo
Why aye aye aye aye Let's get started in here Whoo Hoo
Cos it's hot. Whooo Hoooo.
SO WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR. START SCRIBING.
ARI FUZZMAN
[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 28-1-2005 at 01:54 AM ] |
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ARI FUZZMAN LYRICS FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT OF DEBMEY WHEN HE GET'S IT STARTED ON THE 2:23.
Let's Get It Started With Da Soora
Let's Get It Started, in here...
And Debmey keep runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and
runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and...
In this context, there's no disrespect, so, when I stretch the 2:23 thread, you doubtors break your necks.
We got five minutes for us to disconnect, from all intellect collect the rhythm effect.
Obstacles are inefficient, follow your intuition, free your inner soul answer the 2:23 and break away from tradition.
Coz when Fuzzman beats out, Debmey's pullin zero answer without.
You wouldn't believe how we flushed Debmey out.
Burn it till it's burned out.
Turn it till it's turned out.
Act up from north, west, east, south.
[Chorus:]
Everybody, everybody, let's get into it.
Get serious with da 2:23
Get it started, get it started, get it started.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Yeah.
Lose control, of body and soul.
Don't move too fast, people, just take it slow.
Don't give lame excuses ahead, embrace Fuzzman's challenge just jump into it.
Ya'll here a body, two pieces to it.
Get stutted, get ready
You'll want me Moslem RF people will walk you through it.
Step by step, like you're into new kid.
Inch by inch with the new solution.
Fuzzman hits, with no delusion.
The pressure to produce is irresistible and that's how we movin'.
[Chorus:]
Everybody, everybody, let's get into it.
Get Debmey to get serious
Get it started, get it started, get it started.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Yeah.
Debmey's Runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin runnin' and...
C'mon y'all, lets get woohoo!
Lets get woohoo! (in here)
Lets get woohoo!
Lets get woohoo! (in here)
Lets get woohoo!
Lets get woohoo! (in here) Ow, ow, ow!
Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya...
Let's get real, that's the deal.
At the gate, we'll bring soora 2:23 top drill. (Just)
Lose your mind this is the time,
Ya'll test this soora, Just and bang your brains. (Just)
Bob your head like me APL de, up inside your church or in your Bible.
Get messy, loud and sick.
Ya'll mount past slow mo in another head trip. (So)
Come then now do not admit defeat, let's not get ignorant let's get hectic.
[Chorus:]
Everybody, everybody, let's get into it.
Get serous with da 2:23 (Come on)
Get it started (come one), get it started (yeah), get it started.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started in here.
Let's get it started (ha), let's get it started
(woah, woah, woah) in here.
Yeah.
Lets get woohoo!
Lets get woohoo! (in here)
Lets get woohoo!
Lets get woohoo! (in here)
Lets get woohoo!
Lets get woohoo! (in here) Ow, ow, ow!
Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya...
Debmey's Runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin', and runnin' runnin' [fade]
ARI FUZZMAN |
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Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-1-28 02:12 AM:
The Quran never issued any challenges at all. Only the mis-informed and the ill-knowledged will see the 2:23 as a challenge. It is a challenge to those who cannot overcome it. Just as walking up a steep mountain pass is a challenge to a person with cardiac heart probelms. That is the truth.
Wait a minute Fuzzman.
You say it is not a challenge and you say it is a challenge all in the same breath.
If it is not a challenge, why are you issuing a challenge to me?
Originally posted by Fuzzman at 2005-1-28 02:12 AM:
Quote:
Debmey wrote: Can we pick any verse from the Quran as we like since its an open challenge? You want me to choose the sura myself?
Yes you can. Yes you can. Start choosing now and go forth creating an identical soora like it and not of it.
Now you are asking people to create a sura that is identical. You mean repeat the same thing? What is your definition of identical?
Can I create a sura that is better than the verse chosen from the Quran? Am i then not better than the Quran and therefore [prove that the Quran is not divine?
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Originally posted by Fuzzman at 27-1-2005 07:16 AM:
Do you still remember this proverb which I had chalked up especially for you that can be found somewhere from page 1 to 18 that reads :-
YOU CAN BRING A DONKEY TO A WATER ...
LOL |
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Debmey wrote: Wait a minute Fuzzman. You say it is not a challenge and you say it is a challenge all in the same breath. If it is not a challenge, why are you issuing a challenge to me?
Hell dude, when it comes to you, you deserve better than a minute. I'll do more. I'll wait on you even if Hell freezes over, for whatever time it takes. You see I eat preacher men like you for breakfast all the time. Not as a main course - of course. Just good to go as plain dessert.
Don't twist the words. I issued a challenge to you [personally based on your unwavering conviction] to prove that the 2:23 is as you say; a challenge. Are you backing off already? That fast?
Debmey wrote: Now you are asking people to create a sura that is identical. You mean repeat the same thing? What is your definition of identical?
Identical as in having the same qualities in the area of prose, continuity and revelation, not "OF IT" but "LIKE IT" There is a very vast chasm of a difference between the both if you know what I mean.
Debmey wrote:Can I create a sura that is better than the verse chosen from the Quran? Am i then not better than the Quran and therefore [prove that the Quran is not divine?
I see you're now into a soul-searching mode eh? Having self-doubt already? Good then this is a sign for you to start already because the 2:23 is only meant for doubtors. Talk about Divinity blessed upon you? That's wishful thinking. Take it this way. If there were anything "divine" about you, even a tiny inkling of it, we wouldn't be on page 22; would we? Now that's what I call philosophical thinking, dontcha just wanna agree?
ARI FUZZMAN
[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 28-1-2005 at 10:17 PM ] |
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Hell dude, when it comes to you, you deserve better than a minute. I'll do more. I'll wait on you even if Hell freezes over, for whatever time it takes. You see I eat preacher men like you for breakfast all the time. Not as a main course - of course. Just good to go as plain dessert.
Don't twist the words. I issued a challenge to you [personally based on your unwavering conviction] to prove that the 2:23 is as you say; a challenge. Are you backing off already? That fast?
And if sura 2:23 is not a challenge, why are muslims saying it one? http://www.submission.org/challenge.html
My counter challenge to you is to prove to the submission.org that sura 2:23 is not a challenge.
Identical as in having the same qualities in the area of prose, continuity and revelation, not "OF IT" but "LIKE IT" There is a very vast chasm of a difference between the both if you know what I mean.
Then you shldn't use the word identical cos that would mean the same thing. I suggest you brush up on your English vocab a bit more.
And since you challened me to produce something of same quality, aren't you making a challenge? Why do you contradict yourself?
Same quality you said? What is the criteria for quality are we supposed to use?
Can these criteria be measured objectively?
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Debmey wrote: And if sura 2:23 is not a challenge, why are muslims saying it one? http://www.submission.org/challenge.html My counter challenge to you is to prove to the submission.org that sura 2:23 is not a challenge.
Thank you bringing up this really old site which once again works in my favor. For in this site we have verses that prove that the 2:23 and its affiliated sooras are indeed as Fuzzman had always maintained - nothing more than invitations to learn the truth of Quran. Fuzzman is not concerned about what others may think, even including my own fellow Moslems because what is most important is what QURAN SAYS. Understand. If my fellow Moslems say that the 2:23 is a challenge, then they belong in the same boat as you. Period.
Below are sooras taken from the site appended by you that proves the 2:23 and its mirror sooras to be just invitations :-
This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than
GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a
fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from
the Lord of the universe. If they say, "He fabricated it,"
say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite
whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
[10:37-38]
If they say, "He fabricated (the Quran)," tell them, "Then
produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite
whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
[11:13]
So when are you gonna address all my other questions to you. Can you prove to Fuzzman that the 2:23 has no objective criteria at all?
ARI FUZZMAN |
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Aha! I see that Fuzzman has avoided all the logical questions.
First he claims that sura 2:23 is no challenge, this clearl;y runs contradictory to muslim undersatnding of this verse.
Then he challenged me to produce a sura like it in the same breath and contradicted himself outright.
He said that I shld produce a sura that is of the 'same quality'.
When I asked him for the criteria & objectivity of what he measn by quality, he ran away altogether.
cheers |
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n so the OBJECTIVE CRITERIA thing gonna pop up agin n agin as last resort of hecklin when bro deb***sfe gets stuck ;) |
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Debmey wrote: Aha! I see that Fuzzman has avoided all the logical questions.
Avoiding what "logical questions"? You mean the ones that you keep conjuring that sounds "logical" by your count, or the ones that we New School bros are asking on your inability to summon will over the 2:23?
Debmey wrote: First he claims that sura 2:23 is no challenge, this clearl;y runs contradictory to muslim undersatnding of this verse.
Understanding things differ among people. That is not my probelm. That is why we have different standards of acceptances amongst the Christians over the Bible and the Moslems over the Quran. Fuzzman focuses directly without substandards onto the primary mechanism of the Quran and what transcends from it. Quran contradicts nothing. It is illogical to penalise the Quran just because Moslems choose to differ over overlapping acceptances.
Debmey wrote: Then he challenged me to produce a sura like it in the same breath and contradicted himself outright.
Yes, "in the same breath" I personally challenged you to prove that the 2:23 is a challenge[ when it is not.] The verses from the old site that you appended even mentioned very clearly that the 2:23 and its mirror verses were merely open invites. So what is the "contradiction"?
Debmey wrote: He said that I shld produce a sura that is of the 'same quality'. When I asked him for the criteria & objectivity of what he measn by quality, he ran away altogether.
Sometimes I wonder whether you realise folks here are reading your lies in open opulence? Thorough blinding defiance? Oblivious to accountability? Fuzzman leaves them to ponder and reflect of what you have written here but you take the cake by saying that Fuzzman "runs from you"? If ever there is a Cari "Joker of the Year" Award, I'd nominate you without reservations! LOL.
So tell us all why the 2:23 CANNOT qualify as having the objective criteria?
ARI FUZZMAN |
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Debmey wrote: When I asked him for the criteria & objectivity of what he measn by quality, he ran away altogether.
Look whose running now? Good ole' Debbo the non-Collabo - that's who?!
ARI FUZZMAN |
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Quote: Understanding things differ among people. That is not my probelm. That is why we have different standards of acceptances amongst the Christians over the Bible and the Moslems over the Quran. Fuzzman focuses directly without substandards onto the primary mechanism of the Quran and what transcends from it. Quran contradicts nothing. It is illogical to penalise the Quran just because Moslems choose to differ over overlapping acceptances.
You clearly contradict mainstream islam. You need to go back and study your quran again. You contradict the Quran too while the quran continues to contradict itself. .
Quote:
Yes, "in the same breath" I personally challenged you to prove that the 2:23 is a challenge[ when it is not.] The verses from the old site that you appended even mentioned very clearly that the 2:23 and its mirror verses were merely open invites. So what is the "contradiction"?
There you go, Fuzzy contradicts himself openly.
Quote:
So tell us all why the 2:23 CANNOT qualify as having the objective criteria?
Because it doesn't state any objective criteria.
cheers |
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Debmey wrote: Quoting Fuzzman - So tell us all why the 2:23 CANNOT qualify as having the objective criteria?
Because it doesn't state any objective criteria.
Show us how you derived at that conclusion? Show us where in that soora is it written that supports your argument of not having stating an objective criteria?
ARI FUZZMAN
[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 5-2-2005 at 02:07 AM ] |
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Show me where are teh objective criteria written in the Quran? |
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Post time 27-1-2005 11:47 PM
Author
