Family of beheaded American blame US govt for not helping him!

well seph..i try to understand what you  really have in your head..but i dont think I can. if my apology is not accepted that's fine with me ..I guess i better leave you alone.

John Lennon

Which is why I don't condemn Al Quran (for I have my own reasons) but condemn Muhammad and his conducts. For me, a person who was born a human are entitled to make errors like a human, whether he is a Sage, Prophet or Nabis.

You've got to be smoking crack. The Quran centres around Muhammad. You can't claim to hate Muhammad while don't condemning al-Quran.:stp:

Then again, what the hell do an Atheist know about God and religions?

Very funny. Talking about "ignoring" me. You can make snide remarks about me but still ignore my refutation to your post about Muslim being the only people who kill in the name of religion? (edited for past error)

[ Last edited by John Lennon on 14-5-2004 at 02:50 PM ]

ariyamusafir

Portugis came here for Spice, English came here for the same thing and then their attention turn to tea.

This *****s have put economy and material gains before religion. Hell ... they themselves are lousy Christians, how could they teach others about God?

The initial moto of the Portugist explorers used this as their moto Gospel, Glory, Gold, check your history book please.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by WICKED at 14-5-2004 10:38:


i've received your hate-message here. the hatred you have to us muslims. No point of me educating you people because it doesnt work!  if you think they are my brethren,  why should I betray the ...

I fully agree with you, I sincerely think that this post need to be awarded. Very well said. See Debmey, a muslim sharing the same though with a none muslim. We need more people like WICKED for inter-religious harmony among lay men.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by WICKED at 14-5-2004 13:26:
Seph..why angry at John Lennon just because he has said something that very fair for both of us? I think John Lennon has contributing something  for the peace of the world.  He has played a good ro ...

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 14-5-2004 14:28:
They attacked India because they considered them infidels, they poisoned young men with opium just so they could send silver and gold coins to their homeland, they forced Japan to open its doors and destroy the Samurais which existed for hundreds of years, they forced Siam kings to become their pets and destroyed Burma altogether. Their sins are worse than yours.

And guess what ... look at their society now. Their children are sick mentally and spiritually. They don't know what God is even if God come down and smack them in the head. They don't know what good or bad conducts are (which explain why even priests could sin) and their society is slowly turning to that of an animals'. They do not escape their past sins. Their children WILL face it and suffer for their actions.

This is good article, but we ought not to hate each other from now. You see, if A kills B, then B's son kills A, then A's son kill back the other and so on, when is it going to stop????

Another thing is, the cause of the problem must stop. That is to say, the source of the problem.

Sephiroth

by WICKED

well seph..i try to understand what you  really have in your head..but i dont think I can.

NO ONE can ... so stop trying. :bgrin:

if my apology is not accepted that's fine with me ..I guess i better leave you alone.

I don't think your opology for a whole race is logical. Even if I accept such apology, what good will it do? The problem will still continue and tomorrow we will be at each others' throats again.

IF you do something to me personally, then that's another matter for I can accept such apology, but first make clear what you are apologizing for. IF it is for another person who we are associate with, then you must find the person you made upset for it is not for me to accept an apology meant for someone else.


by John Lennon

You've got to be smoking crack. The Quran centres around Muhammad. You can't claim to hate Muhammad while don't condemning al-Quran.

Baaka ... ;) That's why I said you are stupid for you do not know anything about God or Religion (either do most Muslims it seems for that matter ;)).

1. Al Quran centres around ALL its Prophets, NOT just Muhammad alone.

2. Prophets are HUMANS, and HUMANS are vulnerable for mistakes. They can show humans the example which one can follow but in the end, you (not them) who must decided what is the moral behind that example and follow it.

[Believe it or not, this is basic for both Hindusm AND Buddhism ... trust in your forefathers' examples, learn from their mistakes and make your own judgement. ]

ONLY Muslims do not accept that prophets' make mistakes and leveled them to Gods. Only they accept blindly an example and follow it blindly without thinking that human race and environment around them have changed since the last 1,400 years and it is up to them to make new defination of their religion before it become obsolete, which it will due to time.

3. No matter how good a Religion is, IF a person cannot interprete it properly, the religion itself is no good.

Most moderate Muslims I meet on this board agree that the reason so much problem occuring with this terrorist problems are because the people behind it didn't interprete their religion properly.

Finally ... let me tell you a story happened to me. I was 21 and a Hindu friend of mine gave me Bhagavad Gita to read since we always talk about religion in school. I read through it and I will tell you this ... I didn't understand ONE single verse in there.

I read each chapter twice hoping the second time I read it, it will be clear but it didn't and it annoyed me who could understand Quantum Physics easily. :geram:

Finally, I gave up and decide to just finish reading it for the sake of reading. Did you know what was stated at the end of one of the verse in the last chapter?

"If you do not understand this, then just Trust in Me and I will guide you in your ways" - Krishna said to Arjuna (roughly translated) and I LAUGHED.

It almost like He knew that I going to fail miserably in understand Gita and put it on purpose at the end ... maybe He just knew what is the limitation for those born of this world.

So let me tell you something, my little Atheist "friend" ... I trust in God to guide me through life and He has not failed me YET.

Very funny. Talking about "ignoring" me. You can make snide remarks about me but still ignore my refutation to your post about Muslim being the only people who kill in the name of religion? (edited for past error)

Christians also do the same ... in Ireland, those KKK group in US etc which use Christianity as symbol to hurt others but the different between them and Muslims is that Muslims are the only one who turn this hatred toward non-Muslims.

You just too blind by your own hatred and shortsightness to see anything else. ;)


by ariyamusafir

The initial moto of the Portugist explorers used this as their moto Gospel, Glory, Gold, check your history book please.

There's only a few churchs built by Portugis and that situated in Goa where they made their settlement, Melaka which they conquered and in Philiphines. IF they wanted to spread Christianity, there should exists all over India, Malaysia, China and Philiphines.

Gold - generated by Spice which I already said one of the reasons they came.

Glory - because they wanted to be the first to find trade routes across the sea and didn;t have to depend on Arab traders for spice.

I did follow the history book, Thank You.


  is good article, but we ought not to hate each other from now. You see, if A kills B, then B's son kills A, then A's son kill back the other and so on, when is it going to stop????

Another thing is, the cause of the problem must stop. That is to say, the source of the problem.

And WHAT is the source of the problem?

If you ask most Muslims, they will point at Jews and Israel as if they are saints. You want us to make war against a race which did nothing to us JUST to please you?

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 15-5-2004 09:00:
by WICKED

well seph..i try to understand what you  really have in your head..but i dont think I can.

NO ONE can ... so stop trying. :bgrin:

if my apology is not accepted that' ...

US is the problem, unlike the Germans, French, Norwegion, etc, they are imperialist in this modern era. Ever wondered, how come initially, before the Iraqi war, Terrorist only strike US and US interest abroad and not others?

By the way, The Buddha mentioned that he is NO saviour nor is he a God. He is merely one who is enlightened, a teacher that teaches us what he knows so that we can be free from the cycle of birth and death. Even the gods (devas) one ay will die to, when their merit is over.

Sorry for interrupting. I'd like to add a few thing here. I agree that Buddha isn't God. He never said he was. Buddha simply mean "The Enlightened". In fact, in Diamond Sutra, Buddha mentioned a force that permeates all life. The ONE source of all life. He even mentioned his successor which is far superior than him as Messenger.

But to say devas are Gods sounds incorrect to me. Perhaps the term used is wrong. They aren't God but to me I'd say they are Immortals.

[ Last edited by Adm_Cheng_Ho on 15-5-2004 at 10:23 AM ]

kid

Quoted by Sephiroth:
ONLY Muslims do not accept that prophets' make mistakes and leveled them to Gods. Only they accept blindly an example and follow it blindly without thinking that human race and environment around them have changed since the last 1,400 years and it is up to them to make new defination of their religion before it become obsolete, which it will due to time.

This make me angry!... you spoke as if you knew Islam to other person who do not know Islam yet, and you gave misconception to them!.

In Islam, prophet is just normal HUMAN! and human can make mistake, even the prophets.....and we never and never will leveled prophet as God as it is the most gravest SIN in Islam! very2 sinful to equate God with anything ..... In Islam Allah is One, without any partners. He has no sharers in His essence, attributes, actions, or rulings. He is the sole Creator of all that exists, has existed, and will ever exist. Everything other than Him is His creation

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 15-5-2004 10:16:
Sorry for interrupting. I'd like to add a few thing here. I agree that Buddha isn't God. He never said he was. Buddha simply mean "The Enlightened". In fact, in Diamond Sutra, Buddha ment ...

But the term deva is also used as Gods in Buddhist term. All, one day, that which come in existance will one day too, including all, but the Buddha will not die as he has no birth. Same as for theose Pecceka Buddha and those maha-Arahant, they too will no longer die as they had escape the cycle of birth and death. So long as we have not achieve parinibbana/nibanna, all is subjected to birth and old age and eventually death.

Perhaps that is how the misconception rolls. Not sure how it was construed as God by the writers of the past. That is what I'm pointing out. To me devas are not Gods.

I agree wholely that those who attained full Enlightenment is free from the cycle of birth-death-rebirth. Those like Immortals are still trapped in the cycle is not eternity.

John Lennon

Christians also do the same ...

Guess it takes a rocket scientist to understand C.O.N.T.R.A.D.I.C.T.I.O.N? Go check dictionary.com brother.

You just too blind by your own hatred and shortsightness to see anything else.

Guess it is still pot calling kettle black since you're very generous with your ad hominems.

ONLY Muslims do not accept that prophets' make mistakes and leveled them to Gods. Only they accept blindly an example and follow it blindly without thinking that human race and environment around them have changed since the last 1,400 years and it is up to them to make new defination of their religion before it become obsolete, which it will due to time.

You need to expound this statement. I don't see any proof backing this statement.

Assuming Bhagavad Gita is "obsolete", might as well give new definition to it. Do you agree?

No matter how good a Religion is, IF a person cannot interprete it properly, the religion itself is no good.

Opinion not fact. It is religion that will decide if it's followers are benificial.

So let me tell you something, my little Atheist "friend" ... I trust in God to guide me through life and He has not failed me YET.

Don't keep assuming I'm an atheist.;) A person can say all religion is bunk and yet still believe in a Divine Profidence. I'm leaning towards pantheism actually.

I love that last word. Whattcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when He fails you? You doubted God. You don't trust him. Better word to put will be "He will NEVER fail me." if you really do trust God.

[ Last edited by John Lennon on 15-5-2004 at 11:50 AM ]

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 15-5-2004 10:56:
Perhaps that is how the misconception rolls. Not sure how it was construed as God by the writers of the past. That is what I'm pointing out. To me devas are not Gods.

I agree wholely that those  ...

If, that is so, then according to your definition of god, in Buddhism, there is no, one almighty god, because in Buddhism, all can become Buddha and Karma, or cause and effect is not controlled by gods / devas but is controlled by ourself. Everything has an effect and every effect has a cause and we have what we have today is due to our deeds in the past.  In other religion, that is there is one almighty and we have to respect that but we have to acknowlege that in Buddhism, there is no one almighty god, who creates the whole universe.

Sephiroth

by ariyamusafir

US is the problem, unlike the Germans, French, Norwegion, etc, they are imperialist in this modern era. Ever wondered, how come initially, before the Iraqi war, Terrorist only strike US and US interest abroad and not others?

Wrong ... Terrorist strikes anything which can give them a name in the front page. They tried to make name for themselves by attacking the US war ships in Mid-East and despite of the success, the World didn't know it.

So they make another attempt with the Bamiyan statue and this time, the world did see it but the effect didn't last forever and they needed something to show their "cause" a bit more agressively. And that's when the WTC and 911 comes into the play.

US maybe the problem here but you have to agree that US is the ONLY force which is trying to get Israel and Palestine to sit together and talk. Jordan tried a few times, and failed. Can you name any other Islamic country other than Malaysia who wants peace here?

By the way, The Buddha mentioned that he is NO saviour nor is he a God. He is merely one who is enlightened, a teacher that teaches us what he knows so that we can be free from the cycle of birth and death. Even the gods (devas) one ay will die to, when their merit is over.

Not when their merit is over, but when their times is up. So what's with the statement about Buddha for?


by Adm_Cheng_Ho

But to say devas are Gods sounds incorrect to me. Perhaps the term used is wrong. They aren't God but to me I'd say they are Immortals.

It just words ... unfortunately, in English, the words God and Gods seems to hold the same meaning while in Eastern languages, Devas simply equals to something like Angels/malaikat who are answerable to One above them.


by kid

In Islam, prophet is just normal HUMAN! and human can make mistake, even the prophets.....and we never and never will leveled prophet as God as it is the most gravest SIN in Islam! very2 sinful to equate God with anything .....

IF you do not level your prophet to be equal to God, then, answer me this :

1. WHY is it that Muhammad's name is in your Azan?

2. WHY is it that one has to accept Muhammad (ONLY) as a prophet of God when Islam itself is a composing of Taurat, Injil and message brought by Muhammad?

3. WHY is it that Muhammad's name is in the same level as Allah's in your holy places like Mosque?

Finally,
4. DO you agree that Muhammad as a Man make mistakes or not? Or Is it true that as a Prophet, one doesn't make mistakes?

  Our concept of God is the highest pure concept without any compromise, and in Qur'an the teaching is centered about the One and Only God, not about the prophets...  

Fine ... I accept the above statement above all others. Then why should I be bothered about Muhammad when I can deal with God personally?

You can say that Muhammad teach you how to pray and all, which is fine. All the other prophets taught the same to their followers and they followed and one as a Muslim must learn this. This includes fasting, zikir, and everything else which could bring me close to God.

But what about others? Why should I force myself to do things like fight others in name of Jihad? Why must I hate another non-muslim, calling him Kafir and damning him for not agreeing with me? Why must I force my laws upon others just because I'm a Muslim?

Is that your God's command?

Dont make any misconception again especially when you talk to others who dont know Islam, you have done serious accusation!

Hmph ... answer the above questions, Little Man and we will see who is more Islamic. You who can't even pray 5 times a day without giving some sort of excuse about some Syaitan for interrupting your beauty sleep or I, who's sole reason for existing is Him.  
         

by John Lennon

Guess it takes a rocket scientist to understand C.O.N.T.R.A.D.I.C.T.I.O.N? Go check dictionary.com brother.

Whatever ... and I ain't your brother.

Guess it is still pot calling kettle black since you're very generous with your ad hominems.

I never hate Islam (or another religion for that matter), just hate how Muslims sometimes uses God for excuses to do stupid things.

You can insult me, call me names and do all kind of things and my patience will last, SAY one thing bad about God and my sword will be in your guts before you finish your sentence.

You need to expound this statement. I don't see any proof backing this statement.

That's because it wasn't meant for you to read. I wrote it for someone else (since I supposed to be ignoring you) and I have wrote my statement backing it up above, it will be his job to answer it, NOT YOURS.

Assuming Bhagavad Gita is "obsolete", might as well give new definition to it. Do you agree?

Find something obsolete about it first before you can give anything a new defination.

It lasted 5,000 years ... same time Moses brought your people out of the sands of Egypt ... same time, Taurat appeared in hands of Moses.

Opinion not fact. It is religion that will decide if it's followers are benificial.

Bullshit ... it is the vehicle which determines whether a road is suitable for travelling or not, not the road which choose what type of vehicle will travel on it.

A 4x4 can travel anywhere, a Kancil can't and same as a Wira which cannot treck throught tough terrains. The driver (soul) maybe the the same but if he drives a car which is not suitable for a road, no matter what he does, the car WILL break down before reaching its destination.

You are type who force to drive your car to the destination and close one eye to all kind the problem your car is facing. Sometimes, you just ignore that there is a destination in the end of the route and simply say that there is none and choose to laugh at others who are trying to get somewhere.

Don't keep assuming I'm an atheist. A person can say all religion is bunk and yet still believe in a Divine Profidence. I'm leaning towards pantheism actually.  

And what exactly is Pantheism?

I love that last word. Whattcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when He fails you? You doubted God. You don't trust him. Better word to put will be "He will NEVER fail me." if you really do trust God.

WRONG ... THAT my little friend is the difference between a faithful person and a one who has NO faith in his heart, despite of praying 5 times a day.

God gives what you NEED, not what you WANT.
God owes NOTHING to you and He lose NOTHING if you choose not to believe in Him.
And God will always EXISTS whether you believe in Him or not.

Muslims and Christians pray to God NOT because they have Faith, because they are afraid of Hell and intoxicated with their own imagination of Heaven. They are afraid of Death.

That is why they need to get others to believe in their faith. The more others believe, the more they feel that they are in the right path because they have NO FAITH or reason to believe in GOD. They are just PUPPETS.

I was not guaranteed entrance to Heaven, or guarantees that I will not burn in Hell. I do not know whether there is a Life after this or that I will simply perish after this one.

But I do continue believing in Him day by day. Do you know WHY? Because I don't know also. I know there is a God out there. I don't know whether He noticed me or not, all I know is that as long as He is there, I will fly to Him, and when my wings fails, I will walk and when my legs fail, I will crawl. And when all else fails, I will still try to reach Him with my mind till my last breath. What happens after that? That's no concern of mine since I won't be around to worry.

Faith is not something you learn from a book, it is what you feel in you when you yourself have no reason to do so. THAT'S TRUE FAITH.

ariyamusafir

Not when their merit is over, but when their times is up. So what's with the statement about Buddha for?

When their time is up, that means their merit is over.

It just words ... unfortunately, in English, the words God and Gods seems to hold the same meaning while in Eastern languages, Devas simply equals to something like Angels/malaikat who are answerable to One above them.

Devas are not like malaikat/angels. There are many forms of living and the deva and naga, human are few of them. It is just that those deva in their previous life had done certain merits, which allow them to be reborn in a higher plane, which they enjoy heavenly pleasures. Also, it is not they are answerable to one above them, unlike the angels towards their one almighty in other religion. Yes, the devas may have their own king just like us humans have our own rulers. The Buddha is one who is enlighten and is not god, but one who has seen, and realised the truth and have achieve parinibbana, in which all, the World Honoured one have know.

ariyamusafir

Wrong ... Terrorist strikes anything which can give them a name in the front page. They tried to make name for themselves by attacking the US war ships in Mid-East and despite of the success, the World didn't know it.

So they make another attempt with the Bamiyan statue and this time, the world did see it but the effect didn't last forever and they needed something to show their "cause" a bit more agressively. And that's when the WTC and 911 comes into the play.

US maybe the problem here but you have to agree that US is the ONLY force which is trying to get Israel and Palestine to sit together and talk. Jordan tried a few times, and failed. Can you name any other Islamic country other than Malaysia who wants peace here?

You say me wrong but I say you wrong pula now. The Taliban destroyed the Buddha statue because they are fanatics. Yes, in Islam, you cannot worship any statue, but that does not mean that you cannot leave a historical artifec alone. Also, previously, terrorist only strike US because of their foreign policies, not because they want cover on front page. US has been sucking the muslim population of its wealth. Huh... self bombing and kill yourself just to get yourself at the front page???? I don't think so, self sacrifice for religion, or people, maybe. You see, those suicide bombers in Palestine are bombing their targets with themself because they are being forced to the end and they want a beeter future for their generations (just analyse). You bomb yourself, just because you want to appear in the news, no way. For those who think it is for religion, yes.

Baiduri Othman

What was that guy who committed suicide just b'coz he wanted to be a legend? He was a vocalist for a heavy metal group - Nirvana. Yup, Kurt Kobain!!! I'm sure those suicide bombers are not another Kurt Kobain. They're exploding themselves to get the world's attention so that they could resolve the Palestine-Israel conflicts. They do it for an independence Palestine - for their future generations.

Of course, most of us disapprove such acts!

bila seorang america kena pancung
satu dunia terkejut
tetapi bila pembunuhan berlaku
kepada semua umat Islam
dunia pura2 mengutuk,
lepas tu mereka buat lupa sahaja
dah terus keseronokan bertelanjang
dan berzina!

podah! porah!

:nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana:

Originally posted by Ismail at 2004-5-15 04:22 PM:
bila seorang america kena pancung
satu dunia terkejut
tetapi bila pembunuhan berlaku
kepada semua umat Islam
dunia pura2 mengutuk,
lepas tu mereka buat lupa sahaja
dah terus keseronokan bert ...

:setuju::setuju::setuju: