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What was Jesus said...the Lord thy God... not ME, THY GOD.THE LORD...doesn't meant Jesus himself as Lord.Who Jesus referred to?..Not himself..he never said that, but he THE LORD is God, not him
Get the background of the story. satan was tempting Jesus. IF, as what you say, that Jesus is not God, then satan was tempting Jesus, not God. Hence, Jesus cannot say "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God." Because those words means that He is claiming equality with God. No one can claim equality with God if they are not God - if they do that, it is blaspheming, which is a very serious sin. So, your prophet blasphemes?
I didn't say Jesus is lying. I said maybe Jesus is saying like that to save himself. In that kind of position, you are not considered lying, but saving your life. I didn't uttered/wrote word LYING....So, don't got me wrong.
you used the words " if Jesus is genuine in saying such words, he should not run away" in other words.. your statement is saying this: "He is not genuine in saying such words, and therefore He ran away" and you know.. there's very little to what "not genuine" means... (sorry.. but that's how English grammar and sentence structure works.. )
by the way - i did find that statement a little offensive...
[ Last edited by sparrow at 21-7-2006 08:56 AM ] |
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When Thomas said "MY LORD AND MY GOD".. he was addressing Jesus. In other words, He was CALLING Jesus. Read the story to get the background and setting of the situation.
Originally posted by eastrun at 20-7-2006 07:01 PM
Since I am working now, so I only able to reply your post at least once a day or once in 2days.Hope you understand when I reply you late..
Of course.. that's pretty understandable. So do i actually. i work too. the only reason why i hv ample time to reply these days, is because i'm on a longgggg mc. when i get back to work next week, i may not have this much time to reply too..
[ Last edited by sparrow at 20-7-2006 09:30 PM ] |
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When he say he existed before Abraham, it can be his teaching...or something spiritually, but not himself, even though he claimed 'I AM'
Come on - how does the word I AM refer to teaching? Don't you understand what the pronoun "I" means? Whatever language you learn...I, or me, or saya, or "wo" (chinese).. they are all one of the first words you learn as a child.. and there's no other meaning to that word. Say "I" in whatever language, and even a child would automatically know who it refers to.
Also, in a similar light - who does the word me in the below verses refer to? It's obvious that Jesus is referring to Himself. If Jesus is not God - why did Jesus say the Pharisees worshipped Him, when they are clearly people who only worship God?
Jesus said in Matthew 15:8
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me , teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
seriously, i don't get your argument. You are rejecting all the verses by which Jesus is refering to God as Himself, even by using certain words like "I" and "me"... simply because He did not put it in a 3 word statement "I am God" as you wanted.
Put it simply.. suppose if i were to write a blog of myself.. and i did not specifically write "I am a Christian" in there. Instead, i write about how Jesus died for me, and i praise and worship Jesus there..
Does this mean I am not a Christian.. simply because I didn't specifically write "I am a Christian" in these 4 words?
[ Last edited by sparrow at 21-7-2006 10:41 AM ] |
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ini dari bible ke? kan banyak orang dah kata, bible ni dah byk terpesong, dah tak leh caya. kalo dah terpesong, maknanye cakap jesus tu dah terpesong jugak lah. dah tak valid. |
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ayumi_asahi ,
Itu valid ke tak valid ke, itu terpulang kepada kepercayaan kaum Kristin. Hang jangan sibuk kerana kata2 Mohammed valid atau tak valid pun kmau ikut aja. Peritiwa ini berlaku seribu empat ratus tahun lalau dan mukin asal kata2 tak ada lagi tapi hanya cerita reka oleh manusia yang datang kemudian. Kitab2 yang di guga oleh manusia kini tak terjamin kerana telah lalu pengubahan kurun demi kurun sehaingga hari ini. Ramai yang beri interpretasi mengikut pengetahuan diri sendiri. Oleh itu tak siapa boleh jamin apa ynag di pakai kini itu asal kata2 nabi masing2. Faham tak? |
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Originally posted by barney50 at 21-7-2006 06:19 AM
ayumi_asahi ,
Itu valid ke tak valid ke, itu terpulang kepada kepercayaan kaum Kristin. Hang jangan sibuk kerana kata2 Mohammed valid atau tak valid pun kmau ikut aja. Peritiwa ini berlaku serib ...
ehh, ini bukan inteprasi ayumi sendiri. mmg benar pun nabi isa seorg nabi, bukan allah. ayumi sini bukan nak mengutuk kristian. sebenarnye ayumi tak hairan kristian cakap gitu, sbb ayat2 bible tu mmg seolah-olah nabi isa mengakui dirinye sebagai allah. tapi ape yg mereka tak tau ni, ayat2 dlm bible tu dah dipesongkan. tu lah sbb allah bagi al-koran. mane2 yg salah dlm bible tu al-koran membenarkan. |
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ayumi_asahi,
Itu pendapat kamu and rami penganut Islam, itu kerana apa yang disebut dalam kitab al'koran. Tapi itu bukan pendapat penganut kristian kerana mereka percaya apa ynag disebut dalam kitab bible. Oleh itu mereka pun tak salah dan kamu pun tak salah tapi siapa ynag salah ialah pereka kitab masing masing. Tak mengapa kamu boleh percaya apa kamu ingin percaya dan biar mereka percaya apa mereka ingin percaya dan itulah dikatakan tolorancy dan mutual understanding. |
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pooja_1 This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by sparrow at 20-7-2006 03:43 PM
The people who worshipped Jesus actually knew that He is the Son of God. They are worshipping Jesus. Not the Father above, nor the Holy Spirit. It is not God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit whi ...
Was waiting for you to edit the original post. You did it but not much different....
So, I decided don't want to proceed coz I might end up with another story of a saint who feeds the shirt. |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 20-7-2006 09:44 PM
Come on - how does the word I AM refer to teaching? Don't you understand what the pronoun "I" means? Whatever language you learn...I, or me, or saya, or "wo" (chinese).. th ...
I'm not really saying that the 'I' is his teaching..BUT I did say maybe he tried to tell those Pharisees something spiritually.When you see on the face of word I, of course the meaning is Saya, but Like I said before, Jesus loved to speak something spiritually(John 14). In Christian view, Jesus hard to be understood because every single word he said they got he wrong.
When you asked me whether Jesus is lying or not...of course I say NO, BUT you should ask the Jews because those who wrote the Bible are Jews. Jews never accepted Jesus and they confessed that Jesus is a liar, son of incest and etc. So it can be at that time the Jews that hate Jesus change his words or etc.Well...you yourself cannot prove that those verses are really from Jesus.
The Pharisees worship him..I have answered you before..even though the Pharisees worship him, but he himself never asked the Pharisees to worship him..Since Jesus never asked they to worship him, so what's the point..And that's why the Pharisees righteousness is bad in the eyes of Jesus..
About 'not genuine'...I tried to say that Jesus not really want to say what he have said...at that time the Pharisees were so fierce with him. So the only way to save his life is saying those words.
As long as Jesus himself never confessed that he is God and never asked himself to be worshipped, of course he will be rejected as God until the Judgement Day...but for the people that ASSUME that he is God...I don't know what to say.
In other word, I have to say that my God (Allah) is so honest, not arrogant.Why, because without causing many problems He told us to worship Him and told us that He is GOd.As simple as that...no need thousands of unclear verses just to claim He Himself as God.
Example:
"O My servants who believe! truly, spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me - (and Me alone)!"
(Surah Al - Ankabut 29:56)
"But fall ye down in prostration to Allah, and adore (Him)!"(Surah An-Najm 53:62)
"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me."(Surah Adz-Dzariyat 51:56)
Very simple...so terpulanglah pada kamu...you want to worship a man that never asked you to worship him..go ahead..But for me, my God asked all of us..including you to worship and yet you reject Him. What a shame.
[ Last edited by eastrun at 21-7-2006 06:09 PM ] |
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Originally posted by eastrun at 21-7-2006 06:06 PM
Very simple...so terpulanglah pada kamu...
terpulanglah pada kamu.. good.. i like that.. in fact, i've been waiting for you to say that instead of keep forcing me to come round to your belief..
well, sorry to say, your arguments failed to convince me.. and yes.. i still want to follow Jesus..
but i hope that you see it now that our faith is not simply blind.. we do believe that these verses indicate that Jesus is God.. we do have reasons.. and it's not that we are not using our brains...
I'm not really saying that the 'I' is his teaching..BUT I did say maybe he tried to tell those Pharisees something spiritually.When you see on the face of word I, of course the meaning is Saya, but Like I said before, Jesus loved to speak something spiritually(John 14).
well.. i can't seem to think of what else it could mean.. spiritually or otherwise.. so if you can come up with another definition of "I".. share with me.. i'd like to know.. (tho i can't imagine why does anyone want to think of "possible" meanings (which will only remain a possibility) and disregard the obvious.)
When you asked me whether Jesus is lying or not...of course I say NO, BUT you should ask the Jews because those who wrote the Bible are Jews. Jews never accepted Jesus and they confessed that Jesus is a liar, son of incest and etc. So it can be at that time the Jews that hate Jesus change his words or etc.Well...you yourself cannot prove that those verses are really from Jesus.
oh okay.. so the Bible is in error? good point...
But all in all, it's been nice talking to you.. 
[ Last edited by sparrow at 22-7-2006 01:28 AM ] |
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Originally posted by pooja_1 at 21-7-2006 05:44 PM
Was waiting for you to edit the original post.
Well, i don't see the need to edit the post further. Your question was this: when people bowed to Him was actually they are worshipping the Father or Holy Spirit incarnated in him?
well.. put it simply: the Triune being of God consists of 3 Persons.. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Not just two as in your question.) Jesus is the 2nd one there - the Son.
So while Jesus was walking on earth and people bowed to Him - they are worshipping God - the Son. Simple as that. |
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Originally posted by ayumi_asahi at 7/20/06 07:35 AM
ini dari bible ke? kan banyak orang dah kata, bible ni dah byk terpesong, dah tak leh caya. kalo dah terpesong, maknanye cakap jesus tu dah terpesong jugak lah. dah tak valid.
FYI that's called Argumentum ad Populum, an appeal to popular belief. a type of logical error. |
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davidchemic This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 22-7-2006 10:08 AM
FYI that's called Argumentum ad Populum, an appeal to popular belief. a type of logical error.
TUAN HAJI, THAT IS WHY I CREATE 4 THREAD |
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Originally posted by davidchemic at 7/21/06 06:37 PM
TUAN HAJI, THAT IS WHY I CREATE 4 THREAD
What are u talking about? Why here?
and one more time you call me Tuan Haji I'll cut your credits. Consider yourself lucky that I even bother warning you instead of just doing it.
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davidchemic This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 22-7-2006 10:40 AM
What are u talking about? Why here?
and one more time you call me Tuan Haji I'll cut your credits. Consider yourself lucky that I even bother warning you instead of just doing it.
Because it is not independant views.
OK, I won't call you tuan haji here any more. |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 21-7-2006 06:54 PM
terpulanglah pada kamu.. good.. i like that.. in fact, i've been waiting for you to say that instead of keep forcing me to come round to your belief..
well, sorry to say, your arguments faile ...
Once again you got me.Did Im forcing you...NO, because you asked me to answer and make commentaries upon those verses and I have done my job (from my own view) and when you said that I rejected all the verses, then you should ask that to yourself, because you rejected all Quranic verses that I have given to you (as proves that my God asked we all to worship Him). If you ask me to practice tolerancy..then why don't you do the same. You might say "I rejected the verses because they are not from my holy book"...but that's not the best way to find the truth.
"We did send messengers before thee (Muhammad) amongst the religious sects of old:.But never came a messenger to them but they mocked him..Even so do we let it creep into the hearts of the sinners -.That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of the ancients have passed away." (Surah Al-Hijr 15:10-13)
About the Revelation 22:12 if I am not mistaken....about claiming that Jesus said that he is the Awal and he is the Akhir. But today I read in the Bible, I have find another verse that give another conclusion about the verse. The verse is not from Jesus but from God...see this, in the same book Revelation21:6:
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."
Who is that HE?. God...God said to Jesus, but in the verse that you have given to me...you claimed it is said by Jesus, between the two verse, which one is the genuine one?.
And...about error in thr BIBLE. I have face a problem..(I don't know if you have too)...The problem came when I want to have a discussion with my Christian friend from Sarawak..he has Bible Indonesian version, where as, I am using Bible from Malaysia. Throughout the discussion, there are verses that are in my Bible, but not in his Bible.How can it be..
If Bible is true word of God, every Bible should be same. Not like what I have suffered. And it make me think, why Christians still can't accept this and keep assuming that different version is not a matter, as long as we ASSUME that it is God's word, it is ok..Furthermore, Bible itself never claimed that it will stay preserved until today...not like Holy Quran.
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (Quran); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:9)
That is why you can see all Holy Quran are same..whether it comes from different places. Keep in mind there is only one version of Holy Quran...that's the miracle of Quran.
[ Last edited by eastrun at 22-7-2006 06:29 PM ] |
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Originally posted by eastrun at 22-7-2006 06:11 PM
About the Revelation 22:12 if I am not mistaken....about claiming that Jesus said that he is the Awal and he is the Akhir. But today I read in the Bible, I have find another verse that give another conclusion about the verse. The verse is not from Jesus but from God...see this, in the same book Revelation21:6:
Who is that HE?. God...God said to Jesus, but in the verse that you have given to me...you claimed it is said by Jesus, between the two verse, which one is the genuine one?.
...
yes, both verses Revelation 21:6 AND Revelation 22:12 are in the Bible. Both talks about Jesus Christ saying that He is the Alpha and Omega. And both are genuine. And Both are said by the Lord Jesus Christ, not the Father.
So Revelation 21:6.. although it is said by God - it is not said by the Father..It is said by the Son, ie, Jesus... and The One who will sit on the throne is Jesus.
According to the Bible - on judgement day, it will be Jesus who will be sitting on the throne as the Judge. Not the Father.
The whole book of Revelation, is the revelation of Jesus Christ. ie, the book of Revelation, reveals to us the Lord Jesus Christ as the First and the Last. In Revelation, John saw the Lord Jesus Christ, heard the words He said,.. and is given a series of visions concerning the last days on earth, the second coming of Jesus, the judgement day.. etc.
Revelation 1:1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 1:9-13 - as written by John about when He saw the Lord Jesus Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
The one who spoke was the Son of Man.. who is the Son of Man? Turn back to the Gospels.. the Son of Man is Jesus.
So Jesus is the one saying that He is the Alpha and Omega... this was written in Revelation 1:11. But then, Jesus also repeated the statement a few more times.. (as in Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:12.)
The one you asked about - Revelation 21:6 - it was said by Jesus as well.
Revelation 21:5-6
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
compare this to John 7, where Jesus said:
John 7:37
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
The One on the throne - is the one who will be giving the water of life.. which is Jesus.
that is why i told you.. according to the Bible... Jesus is God.
[ Last edited by sparrow at 23-7-2006 11:58 AM ] |
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And...about error in thr BIBLE. I have face a problem..(I don't know if you have too)...The problem came when I want to have a discussion with my Christian friend from Sarawak..he has Bible Indonesian version, where as, I am using Bible from Malaysia. Throughout the discussion, there are verses that are in my Bible, but not in his Bible.How can it be..
hm.. i don't use BM bible. Now, it's NOT because i don't trust BM bibles.. but my command of the BM language is next to horrible. But feel free to paste the verses.. i'll try to look into it when i hv time...
no promises though.. like i said, my BM is horrible..i can't even read Berita Harian properly.. 
Or maybe, some other Christian with a better command in BM in this board can try to help.. |
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Originally posted by sparrow at 22-7-2006 10:58 PM
yes, both verses Revelation 21:6 AND Revelation 22:12 are in the Bible. Both talks about Jesus Christ saying that He is the Alpha and Omega. And both are genuine. And Both are said by the Lord ...
By the way, can I know who is John anyway and who wrote the Revelation?.Please ask this to your scholar. Because as far as I am concerned, no scholars know who wrote the book.He is not an apostle and not Jesus disciple.Ask this to your scholar ok.Because when John himself not genuine, anything he heard also cannot be trusted.By the way...see Revelation 1:1
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"
Who gave the Revelation to Jesus?. God..if Jesus is God, he himself will give the Revelation to his servant, John (Servant?.). In this case, Jesus himself is a servant to God. Since God gave the Revelation to Jesus Christ, then those verses in the Book are from God and the Alpha and Omega is God.
Jesus know about the Old and New Testament because God taught him:
""And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel," (Surah Al-Imran 3:48)
And Jesus himself claimed:
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."(John 5:30)
And now you claimed Jesus is the one who will be the judge during the judgement Day?.
I wonder how can Jesus be the Alpha and Omega and how can he existed before Abraham, because his birth was given by Mary..if he is the Alpha, then he should not have a mother, or someone before his existence. And now he died, how can he be the Omega?.According to the BIBLE...Jesus is God?..No..No..No..because Jesus not confessed himself as God..but once again, you all made a conclusion and assuming that he is God...very clear.Doesn't we call that a blind faith?..Truly blind.
About the different version of the BIBLE, you are not answering my question and commentary. It doesn't a matter whether your BM is ok or not, but since the books are different each other, still cannot be assumed as word of God.In this case, once again, you ASSUMING the Bible you hold is God's word.Christian is full of assuming something which is not clear...I see.
"It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!"(Surah Al-Imran 3:69)
Ok...:hmm:
[ Last edited by eastrun at 23-7-2006 09:53 AM ] |
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Originally posted by eastrun at 23-7-2006 08:50 AM
By the way, can I know who is John anyway and who wrote the Revelation?.Please ask this to your scholar. Because as far as I am concerned, no scholars know who wrote the book.He is not an apo ...
well.. in one of your posts.. you claimed that you formed your conclusions based on the Bible AND the Qur'an that Jesus is not God.
what i'm just trying to show you here is that, that your conclusions are NOT based on both the Bible and the Qur'an, as you claimed earlier. There is no way you can make your conclusions based on both the books. If you accept the Qur'an.. you are bound to conveniently disregard certain portions of the Bible and consider them as false. (which is what you are doing). As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is from Genesis to Revelation, and I don't disregard any portion or any verse from it. In other words.. you cannot say that your conclusions are based upon the Bible, if you do not accept the whole Bible. It would be more approprate to say that your conclusions are only from the Qur'an, or rather, your conclusions are made based on the Qur'an, supported only by any portions of the Bible that agrees with it...
Likewise.. when i take the Bible as true, there's no way i believe in the Qur'an as well.. because the two books are just contradictory on what they say about the Lord Jesus Christ.
On this: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"
God gave it to Jesus.. if you read it carefully, you will find that Jesus, appeared to John in the form of the Son of Man. i already told you many times: while Jesus is God, Jesus is not the Father.. He is the Son! God, in His divine Supreme Being as the Father, gave that revelation to the Son.. to be revealed to John.
John is Jesus's apostle John. Remember two of Jesus's apostles - James and John.. the Son of Zebedee? That apostle John. The Revelation was written by John, as he said, in Patmos.
(According to history, Patmos is an island in Greece. And it is one of the places where the Romans used to hold prisoners indefinitely without charge or trial, like for political or religious prisoners. Many of the apostles and followers of Christ has been imprisoned by the Romans during the time when they preached about Jesus Christ. The apostle John was sent to Patmos in the year 95 by the Roman emperor Domitian, but was released less than 2 years later.
And now you claimed Jesus is the one who will be the judge during the judgement Day?.
Yes. Well, it is not actually me who said it, but the Bible said it. It is said in those verses.. that the Son of Man, and the One who will give the water of life, who will be the Alpha and Omega,.. and that the One who will be on the throne on judgement day, is the Alpha and Omega.. and that concludes that it is the Lord Jesus on the throne.
Furthermore, Jesus himself said it that the Father has given Him the authority to judge.
John 5:22
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son
John 5:27
27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Also, in 2 Corinthians, Paul echoed this statement:
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.
--> the judgement seat is the throne - where Christ (the Alpha and Omega) is going to sit.
I wonder how can Jesus be the Alpha and Omega and how can he existed before Abraham, because his birth was given by Mary..if he is the Alpha, then he should not have a mother, or someone before his existence. And now he died, how can he be the Omega?.
Well, that was what Jesus said, didn't he? He said that He existed before Abraham. And He also said that He existed before David, and David called Him Lord. Regardless of what we think. that is what HE said.
Well.. Mary is only His mother to his human form on earth. He is God Incarnate,, and it is His human form that was lived and died on earth.
Also, did Jesus remain dead after He died? Remember He rose from His dead three days after His death. And He is alive today..
He can be the Omega because He has risen from the dead, and He is alive today.. and He will be alive forevermore...
Well, claiming it is not true.. that's not really a valid argument, is it? after all, if you could say that what Jesus said in the Bible cannot be trusted.. i can also say that Islam's Prophet Muhammad cannot be trusted. (can i say that you are also practising blind faith then?)
It's just a matter of whom you trust.. and I choose to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. After all Jesus said.. I AM...
[ Last edited by sparrow at 23-7-2006 04:06 PM ] |
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Post time 20-7-2006 09:18 PM
Author
