[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

Debmey

Observe how Muslims have tried to defend Mohd's paedophilia.

First they said that its no paedophilia cos it was legal marriage.
Then they say that Aisha was special somehow that made her suitable for marriage at a young age and that somehow negates Mohd's paedophilia.
Next they claim that Aisha's age was recorded wrongly in the hadiths w/o showing any real proof.
Finally. mmc
& oreng switch defence by claming 'consumation of marriage' does not mean sex.

You see how muslim have been taking up different posistiosn and ended up contradicting even themselves?

Ahahahahahahaha................................

Oreng

Yes. debmey, we have many avenues to prove that you are wrong. You rely only on your slanted thinking.

Oreng

how you infer living in a house means married to a house ? stupid indeed !

consummation of marriage as i say earlier means 'living together', but you deliberately ignore the phrase 'living together'. This is not a case of bad comprehension but a case of bad heart.

Png_Prince

Was Ayesha really 6 years old when she married Muhammad?

A few comments about Muhammad抯 marriages are in order. Muhammad married his first wife, Khadijah, several years before his announcement as a prophet of Islam.  Khadijah was a reasonably well-to-do woman of Makkah and was 15 years his senior.  Muhammad was 25 and Khadijah was 40 at the time of their marriage. This loving and caring monogamous relationship continued for 25 years until her death.  Muhammad, now over 50 years of age, married a relatively aged woman by the name of Saudah.  It is thus important to note here that Muhammad抯 twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior. This speaks volumes about this man抯 piety and loyalty in spousal matters as well as about the fact that his later marriages could not have been motivated by any human wild sexual desires. In 620-621 A.D, he and his devout companions migrated from Makkah to Medina. Then a couple of years later, he married Ayesha, a daughter of his closest companion, Abu Bakr, in the 3rd Hijrah (Islamic calendar--623-24 A.D).  This information coming from diverse historical and Hadith sources is widely agreed upon and therefore can be, a priori, considered authentic.  Based on this information, and a host of other related bits and pieces detailed below, it can be shown that Ayesha could have been at least 16-19 of age at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (pbuh).  The following is the detail of the analysis of these historical and Hadith accounts.

1. Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9.  Although, this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father.  Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith.  Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators.  In this case, there is basically only one source.

2. Despite the abundance of information available during the 71 years that Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina, it is rather odd that that no one else梟ot even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Ayesha抯 age from Hisham in Medina.  Furthermore, all the narrators of this Hadith were Iraqis.  Hisham is reported to have moved to Iraq in his later years. An extensive list of biographical sketches of all narrators including these Iraqis is available in some books.

3. Yaqub ibn Shaibah is reported to have said, 搉arratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq".  Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), a student of Hisham in fact discredited all narratives of Hisham that were reported through people of Iraq.
(Tehzibu'l-tehzib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), vol 11, pg 48 - 51).

4. It is reported that Hisham bin Urwah抯 memory suffered in his later years to the extent that some of the traditions reported from Hisham bin Urwah could not be trusted for authenticity.
(Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, by Al-Zahbi , Arabic, a book on the life sketches of the narrators of the Hadith, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301).

5. Even though Ayesha is reported to have been born about eight years before Hijrah (around 614 A.D.), one can find another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) whereby Ayesha is reported to have said that she was a 憏oung girl

Png_Prince

12. A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in His Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, Khaulah came to the Prophet (pbuh) and advised him to marry again.  She had two propositions for the Prophet:  Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Ayesha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature lass.  If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.
(Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

13. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad抯 daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah  was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55.  That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.
(Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)

Finally, it must be pointed out that Ayesha抯 age at the time of her marriage has never been an issue.  If it were, his enemies must have picked up on this issue as they did to him on some other issues. Also, the reader must note that none of these Hadith reports concerning Ayesha抯 controversial age of marriage with the Prophet goes back to the Prophet himself.  In other words, it is not the Prophet himself who said Ayesha was 6 or 9.  These reports came from a single individual and the Iraqis reported from him when he grew old and his memory started failing.

yusmar

in 1920 my grandmother got married when she was 14 years old. Her mother married when she was 10. Back in those days........marrying young was not a big issue. It was the necessity during those days. i don't see what is the problem.

People.....this was what happened then.....it is HISTORY......

Debmey

Originally posted by Oreng at 8-6-2007 10:24 AM
Yes. debmey, we have many avenues to prove that you are wrong. You rely only on your slanted thinking.

Unfortunately, none of you have even provided any credible evidence that aisha wasn't 9 years old when mohd had sex with her.
And it seems you Muslims ended up contradicting yourselves. You can't even be united on this issue and even call the hadith corrupt.

cheers



Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

[ Last edited by  Debmey at 8-6-2007 11:27 AM ]

Debmey

It was still paedophilia even though it was OK culturally back then.
The reason why your gramma married so young was because you people were taking Mohd as an example.

The point is, 10 is hardly a good age for marriage and if mohd was suppose to be the model for mankind, he shld have set a good standard that can stand the test of time. The fact that he committed paedophilia shows that he could not had been divinely guided as your muslims believe.

yusmar

Originally posted by Debmey at 8-6-2007 11:32 AM
It was still paedophilia even though it was OK culturally back then.
The reason why your gramma married so young was because you people were taking Mohd as an example.

The point is, 10 is ha ...

u donno the reason why my gramma married young...so please do not assume. Life was not easy back then and a lot of ppl just wanna marry of their daughtres to lessen their burden and thats reality. It does not only happen to the malays....but it happens to the chinese and to the indians and other races too. so please do not think u know it all because u don't. and how dare u talk abt my grandmother when u don't know her at all.:@

Debmey

So why not marry her off at 6? There is a age floor isn't it?

Whatever the reason, its not a good practice and you too know it wasn't a good thing. So why did mohd do it when aisha's family wasn't poor? The answer is plain paedoiphilia.

Png_Prince

Was Ayesha really 6 years old when she married Muhammad?

A few comments about Muhammad抯 marriages are in order. Muhammad married his first wife, Khadijah, several years before his announcement as a prophet of Islam.  Khadijah was a reasonably well-to-do woman of Makkah and was 15 years his senior.  Muhammad was 25 and Khadijah was 40 at the time of their marriage. This loving and caring monogamous relationship continued for 25 years until her death.  Muhammad, now over 50 years of age, married a relatively aged woman by the name of Saudah.  It is thus important to note here that Muhammad抯 twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior. This speaks volumes about this man抯 piety and loyalty in spousal matters as well as about the fact that his later marriages could not have been motivated by any human wild sexual desires. In 620-621 A.D, he and his devout companions migrated from Makkah to Medina. Then a couple of years later, he married Ayesha, a daughter of his closest companion, Abu Bakr, in the 3rd Hijrah (Islamic calendar--623-24 A.D).  This information coming from diverse historical and Hadith sources is widely agreed upon and therefore can be, a priori, considered authentic.  Based on this information, and a host of other related bits and pieces detailed below, it can be shown that Ayesha could have been at least 16-19 of age at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (pbuh).  The following is the detail of the analysis of these historical and Hadith accounts.

1. Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9.  Although, this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father.  Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith.  Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators.  In this case, there is basically only one source.

2. Despite the abundance of information available during the 71 years that Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina, it is rather odd that that no one else梟ot even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Ayesha抯 age from Hisham in Medina.  Furthermore, all the narrators of this Hadith were Iraqis.  Hisham is reported to have moved to Iraq in his later years. An extensive list of biographical sketches of all narrators including these Iraqis is available in some books.

3. Yaqub ibn Shaibah is reported to have said, 搉arratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq".  Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), a student of Hisham in fact discredited all narratives of Hisham that were reported through people of Iraq.
(Tehzibu'l-tehzib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), vol 11, pg 48 - 51).

4. It is reported that Hisham bin Urwah抯 memory suffered in his later years to the extent that some of the traditions reported from Hisham bin Urwah could not be trusted for authenticity.
(Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, by Al-Zahbi , Arabic, a book on the life sketches of the narrators of the Hadith, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301).

5. Even though Ayesha is reported to have been born about eight years before Hijrah (around 614 A.D.), one can find another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) whereby Ayesha is reported to have said that she was a 憏oung girl

Png_Prince

12. A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in His Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, Khaulah came to the Prophet (pbuh) and advised him to marry again.  She had two propositions for the Prophet:  Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Ayesha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature lass.  If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.
(Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

13. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad抯 daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah  was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55.  That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.
(Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)

Finally, it must be pointed out that Ayesha抯 age at the time of her marriage has never been an issue.  If it were, his enemies must have picked up on this issue as they did to him on some other issues. Also, the reader must note that none of these Hadith reports concerning Ayesha抯 controversial age of marriage with the Prophet goes back to the Prophet himself.  In other words, it is not the Prophet himself who said Ayesha was 6 or 9.  These reports came from a single individual and the Iraqis reported from him when he grew old and his memory started failing.

Png_Prince

Debmey stucked when couldnt answer.

cheers

Png_Prince

Debmey stucked and ashamed to tell his sect in christianity. So just to vent off his anger, he gets paranoid. Hahahahahaha

cheers

yusmar

Originally posted by Debmey at 8-6-2007 11:43 AM
So why not marry her off at 6? There is a age floor isn't it?

Whatever the reason, its not a good practice and you too know it wasn't a good thing. So why did mohd do it when aisha's family w ...

How would i know....mebbe my great great great great grandmother was married of at that age....and so what? Those days were different then now......now ppl are so smart that they come up with all kinda terms........

Progress people......why keep harping on the same thing....you don like the muslims explaination.....don listen to it......after all thats waht u've been doing......u don really wanna know the answer....and u don care for the answer.......so....move on.

Png_Prince

You havent proved beyond doubt aisya's age was 6 when she get married. Im still waiting for ur proof dumbney.

Debmey

http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthr ... &extra=page%3D1

Whole lot of proof here

And you still haven't disproved me.

Png_Prince

Was Ayesha really 6 years old when she married Muhammad?

A few comments about Muhammad抯 marriages are in order. Muhammad married his first wife, Khadijah, several years before his announcement as a prophet of Islam.  Khadijah was a reasonably well-to-do woman of Makkah and was 15 years his senior.  Muhammad was 25 and Khadijah was 40 at the time of their marriage. This loving and caring monogamous relationship continued for 25 years until her death.  Muhammad, now over 50 years of age, married a relatively aged woman by the name of Saudah.  It is thus important to note here that Muhammad抯 twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior. This speaks volumes about this man抯 piety and loyalty in spousal matters as well as about the fact that his later marriages could not have been motivated by any human wild sexual desires. In 620-621 A.D, he and his devout companions migrated from Makkah to Medina. Then a couple of years later, he married Ayesha, a daughter of his closest companion, Abu Bakr, in the 3rd Hijrah (Islamic calendar--623-24 A.D).  This information coming from diverse historical and Hadith sources is widely agreed upon and therefore can be, a priori, considered authentic.  Based on this information, and a host of other related bits and pieces detailed below, it can be shown that Ayesha could have been at least 16-19 of age at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (pbuh).  The following is the detail of the analysis of these historical and Hadith accounts.

1. Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9.  Although, this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father.  Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith.  Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators.  In this case, there is basically only one source.

2. Despite the abundance of information available during the 71 years that Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina, it is rather odd that that no one else梟ot even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Ayesha抯 age from Hisham in Medina.  Furthermore, all the narrators of this Hadith were Iraqis.  Hisham is reported to have moved to Iraq in his later years. An extensive list of biographical sketches of all narrators including these Iraqis is available in some books.

3. Yaqub ibn Shaibah is reported to have said, 搉arratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq".  Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), a student of Hisham in fact discredited all narratives of Hisham that were reported through people of Iraq.
(Tehzibu'l-tehzib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), vol 11, pg 48 - 51).

4. It is reported that Hisham bin Urwah抯 memory suffered in his later years to the extent that some of the traditions reported from Hisham bin Urwah could not be trusted for authenticity.
(Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, by Al-Zahbi , Arabic, a book on the life sketches of the narrators of the Hadith, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301).

5. Even though Ayesha is reported to have been born about eight years before Hijrah (around 614 A.D.), one can find another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) whereby Ayesha is reported to have said that she was a 憏oung girl

Png_Prince

12. A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in His Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, Khaulah came to the Prophet (pbuh) and advised him to marry again.  She had two propositions for the Prophet:  Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Ayesha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature lass.  If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.
(Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

13. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad抯 daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah  was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55.  That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.
(Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)

Finally, it must be pointed out that Ayesha抯 age at the time of her marriage has never been an issue.  If it were, his enemies must have picked up on this issue as they did to him on some other issues. Also, the reader must note that none of these Hadith reports concerning Ayesha抯 controversial age of marriage with the Prophet goes back to the Prophet himself.  In other words, it is not the Prophet himself who said Ayesha was 6 or 9.  These reports came from a single individual and the Iraqis reported from him when he grew old and his memory started failing.

Debmey

Where is the primary evidence? All you have posted are claims with baseless assumptions.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88