Ismail or Isyak ?!

Robotech

Really? So why revere the arabs and worship arab culture? Why bother to link ismail to the sacrifice?
Aren抰 you contradicting yourself?

You're a Singaporean right? Now, do you see Malays with a Malay songkok, a Malay baju Melayu, a kain pelikat? Or a full set of Malay traditional costumes during malay weddings, with the Malay headress & malay Kris?

Guess you're bloody ignorant cooped up in your sardine cans ....

Debmey

Originally posted by Robotech at 30-12-2006 12:08 AM
Is it? Some Christian scholars even converted to Islam after reading it y'know. Gospel of Barnabas was found not by Muslim, but by 18th century Spanish courtier, JF Cramer & several version of it were dated back in 16th century.

Written by Muslims.

The Gospel become a sensation in Muslim world only after the Christians clergies argued about it. The Gospel obviously attracted Muslim think tanks to analyse the Gospel.

But even the Muslim schorlars realised it a hoax and rejected it.

Ishmael story is by far considered legitimate by Muslim.

not based on facts, logic nor evidence.

Now, even Jews do not recognised Jesus as Son of God or even his authenticity as prophet ... what say you? .

First generation Chrirtians were Jews. What say you?
millions converted thru the ages, what say you?

Robotech

Christianity is a monotheistic faith

Yeah right .... with the Trinity Three In One concept. Hey, I can accept a three in one coffee or even three in one hair shampoo, but a God that supposedly one God but have 3 ?

What? A Son God who is fathered by a Father God who sent a Holy Ghost who is also a God which equals to One God?

Damn, that's to hard to chew, man ... Why not God is just One ... as simple as that.

Monotheistic concept in Christianity ... think again bub!

Debmey

Originally posted by Robotech at 30-12-2006 12:13 AM
Arabs comes from those stocks. That means they too are Semitic. Now, can we actually traced the current obviously non-pure Jewish mongrels that have intermarried with other ethnicities to be completely descended from Isaac?

Now, do we still have DNA test proving that Isaac & Ishmael provided the Semitic tribes of their lineage!?

BTW, English is not my first language, but It is passable enuff.

.

There may be intermarriages within a region but there is nothing to link Ismail to arabs at all. No credible nor logical records, only wild baseless claims by muslims.
what say you?

Debmey

The Jurhum tribe adopted the monotheistic faith as brought by Abraham & his son Ishmael.

But, later generations reverted back to worshipping idols. Much can be said of Jewish tribes after Isaac, after many generations later on worshipping idols & calves during Moses time.

No evidence of any Jurhum tribe at all.
Did Jews continue to worship calf?
Since arabs practice paganism for much longer, isn抰 it worst? So why aren抰 arabs judged and condemned?

You imply that, not me. There a reason why the final prophet was not descended from the Israelites ... a simple reason that the tribes have betrayed 3 prophets in succession .. John the Baptist son of Zachariah, Zachariah himself & of course, Jesus Christ. .

First of all, Jews did not reject these three prophets but embrace them.
Second, is allah into baseball or something? Where did this three strikes thingy came from? Waqs it from allah or from your own imagination? Why three? Why not four? How about two?

Now, we can question the same thing, why are they no Roman or Greek prophet from God. We can debate this till cows can flies. Even in the Bible tell us of Israelites debauchery, treachery committed time & time again. God saw it fits to send His messengers to the Tribe.

Not the same question bro.
You failed to define a prophet to begin with. You muslims don抰 even know what is a prophet.
Are there Roman or Greek prophets? Perhaps. But not all prophets are recorded in the Bible.

In the end, even Jesus being betrayed. Muhammad, an Arab, was chosen as the prophet by God Almighty, who by his time, pagan Arabs are closely becoming worst much like the Jews of earlier times. Through Muhamad, Islam torn down all racial & cultural barriers till today. .

Mo was a religious bigot and had no tolerance.
Arabia used to be a multi racial and multi religious society. Mo came along and destroyed anyone who don抰 choose to believe in his religion.

The Biblical punishments ended after Moses & Aaron era.

What rubbish! You have not read the Bible at all. Don抰 be lazy and don抰 be a liar my fren.

Remember Ku Klux Klan? Does Neo Nazi ring a bell?

Yes, I remember them, we Christians kicked them.
Where are the Jews in Muslim countries today? What did you Muslims do to them?

Or why overseas Jews are mostly liberals & not Jewish conservatives? Or why they do not want to be conscripted as soldiers by Israel? Or the simple reason that they don't clicked with the Israel nation?

Not true mister. You are making wild claims again.

You're a Singaporean right? Now, do you see Malays with a Malay songkok, a Malay baju Melayu, a kain pelikat? Or a full set of Malay traditional costumes during malay weddings, with the Malay headress & malay Kris?

You adopt arab names right? You adopt Arabic words into your vocab right?
You pray in Arabic right? You bow towards mecca right?

karengkang

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 28-12-2006 08:38 PM

Hebrew version has "tishlakh" that literally means "to send away". So what's ur point?

1- cast
2- put
3- to send away

let me make things clear for u (what ever the translation is)


.....she cast/put/send away the child (which actually 16 years old that moment) under one of the shrubs/bushes.

question: do u know how is the bushes at the desert looks like ??
here some example :nerd:

]

I've already  answered your question. Why you repeat it again like parrot? After answering your question you gave some example with car, and I answered it as well. You could nothig to say on it and instead return back to original already answered question.

u can bring any version...
even in it's original language..
it will give the same results..
1- invalid/contradict
2- corrupted

this is what i'm telling u all this while
but somehow u never get my point..
and still want to believe all that crappy things...

so, suit yourself

I will repeat my questions that you and your buddies could not answer:

1) Why Ishmael and his mom were kicked, while Isaac with Abraham and Sarah remained in Holy Land.
2) Why Ishmael's descendants vecame pagans while Isaacs remained monotheists.
3) Why God firts signed covenant with Isaac - youngest son and not with Ishmael - oldest.

Bible version easily explains all 3 questions. Islamic version can't.

u always want to run from the topic don't u ?

please open a new thread
heh..

Debmey

Here's where the muslim version of the ismail story scre-ws up.

Abraham was in Canaan when he sent out Hagar and ismail. the Quran does not adequately says why.
Muslims then claim that hagar and son went to mecca whcih is 1000km away before they found water at the Zamzam.
This is ridiculous!  Muslims must have dreamt up this trip to mecca to desperately bolster their legitimiacy as a religion whiel not knwoing geography nor facts.

Originally posted by Debmey at 31-12-2006 01:18 PM
Here's where the muslim version of the ismail story scre-ws up.

Abraham was in Canaan when he sent out Hagar and ismail. the Quran does not adequately says why.
Muslims then claim that hagar an ...

did your cow god tell u that history??

Debmey

Your allah told you that history, its ridiculous!

nightlord

Has any muslim ever asked themselves these obvious questions...

1. Why didn't lsmail continue with the fathers religion and teach it to his children before the coming of Muhammad.

2. Why were there no oral histories of Abraham before the arrival ol Muhammad.

3. If you say Ismail and Abraham built a new place of worship.....then what happened to Abraham 's holy books. No prophet would ever leave home without a convoy of servants and scribes.

Nick_Perelman

Originally posted by karengkang at 31-12-2006 12:48 PM
1- cast
2- put
3- to send away

Good, you see how easily things are solved?  

.....she cast/put/send away the child (which actually 16 years old that moment) under one of the shrubs/bushes.

question: do u know how is the bushes at the desert looks like ??
here some example

Here another example from Negev desert (where it happaned) :

u always want to run from the topic don't u ?

please open a new thread
heh..

Ishmael and Isaac are THE TOPIC. Thanks for admiting that you cant answer my simple questions on Ishmael and Isaac:

1) Why Ishmael and his mom were kicked, while Isaac with Abraham and Sarah remained in Holy Land.
2) Why Ishmael's descendants vecame pagans while Isaacs remained monotheists.
3) Why God firts signed covenant with Isaac - youngest son and not with Ishmael - oldest.

all the best
Nick

Originally posted by Debmey at 31-12-2006 01:18 PM
Here's where the muslim version of the ismail story scre-ws up.

Abraham was in Canaan when he sent out Hagar and ismail. the Quran does not adequately says why.
Muslims then claim that hagar and son went to mecca whcih is 1000km away before they found water at the Zamzam.
This is ridiculous!  Muslims must have dreamt up this trip to mecca to desperately bolster their legitimiacy as a religion whiel not knwoing geography nor facts.

This particular posting simply really caught my attention. I think this forumner managed to expose the illogical claims that a mother & son have to travelled 1000km before they found water... is simply unbelievable! Don't say 1000km, i think for even a 10km travel w/o food & water, they would probably collapsed and died already. Assuming, they were on the desert at that time,under the scorching sun-heat & ravaging sandstorms, they will not go for even a 5km. So what more a 1000km journey. Mission Impossible and this is true only in Hollywood movie !

Well, someone has to reveal the 'hoax' somehow. Perhaps, these are just one of the many man-made up tales. Why would be anyone be so evil to create such lies. I just don't understand these people...but then again, for what purpose? It is for a global purpose or simply done out of jealousy to non-Muslims esply the Christians & Jews?

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 1-1-2007 06:38 AM

Good, you see how easily things are solved?  
.....Ishmael and Isaac are THE TOPIC....
...

I've been reading through the several postings back & forth, you are quite right in a way. I did sense that some of them are straying away from the topic. Thanks for reminding them, mr. Just to remind, one particular forumner said it a lie. Don't be surprise if it happened before 1,400 years ago, i don't see why it is not happening again today in this world or now right at our very own eyes where these muslim hypocrites are trying to uphold the so-called truth which is actually based on their Quran. What a waste of time in celebrating the Hari raya Qurban. Believers decieved - became deceivers - then, carry on their deceiving works not based on the true word of God. The next time around, they are already on the streets shouting "jihad,jihad" and ready to plant explosives in their bodies and sacrifice themselves to....i don't know.... SATAN , maybe !!! Fanatics or not, they are all the same - Live and die by the SWORD !!!

[ Last edited by  Mat`Roket at 1-1-2007 11:26 AM ]

Robotech

Written by Muslims. ..... But even the Muslim schorlars realised it a hoax and rejected it. (of Barnabas)

Still, there are credibility to Barnabs Gospel. What can you expect, to trust God-Knows how many version of Bible or Gospels out there, by Orthodox or Catholic or Coptic or Protestant versions ....

not based on facts, logic nor evidence. (of Ishmael story)

It is supported by Quran. That is a miracle & fact to Muslims. If you refused to accept it, its your call. No ned to change Muslims mind.

First generation Chrirtians were Jews. What say you?
millions converted thru the ages, what say you?

Not millions. 1st or 2nd genaration may be, by the time Roman Empire institutionalised Christianity, Christian is definitely not Jewish identity. Jewish nation & its people continued to be firmly entrenched with their Jewish roots, & persecuted by Christians for time to come until WW 2.

Robotech

There may be intermarriages within a region but there is nothing to link Ismail to arabs at all. No credible nor logical records, only wild baseless claims by muslims.
what say you?

There are 3 branch from where the current Arabs originated:

- Perished Arabs: These are the ancients of whose history little is known. They include 慉d, Thamûd, Tasam, Jadis, Imlaq and others.
- Pure Arabs: They allegedly originated from the progeny of Ya憆ub bin Yashjub bin Qahtan bin Hud so were also called Qahtanian Arabs.
- Arabized Arabs: They allegedly originated from the progeny of Ishmael and were also called 慉dnanian Arabs. The Quraish are a branch of the "Arabized Arabs".

Jurhum is believed to be the Arabized Arabs ancestors or simple the ancestors to most modern Arabs in the region of Arabia peninsular.

The nomadic Jurhum tribe sttled around Mecca valley & from there sprang forth the progeny of Ishmael with a Jurhum woman. Arab traditions are famous for tracing back their lineage to hundreds & even thousands of years based on oral & later written records.

Robotech

No evidence of any Jurhum tribe at all.
Did Jews continue to worship calf?
Since arabs practice paganism for much longer, isn抰 it worst? So why aren抰 arabs judged and condemned?

There are evidence of them as amongst the first nomadic tribe that settled the Mecca valley. The Jurhum are recognised by many pagan Arab tribes as their direct ancestors. Even after Islam spread thoughout Aarabia, Jurhum continued to be remembered as the direct linkage between Ishmael & his descendants (Arabised Arabs) the Qurayh tribe & other Arab tribes of that era.

Several Perished Arab tribes known as Ad & Thamud were completely obliterated by God for defying God's word through His Messengers.

Robotech

First of all, Jews did not reject these three prophets but embrace them.
Second, is allah into baseball or something? Where did this three strikes thingy came from? Waqs it from allah or from your own imagination? Why three? Why not four? How about two?

God sent countless mesengers to Israelites .... time & time again they defied God's word, & simply outright murdered or even driven out God's Messengers.

Now, even Bible tell tories of retribution by God to the wicked Israelites ... which millions of Christians adhered to. Such portrayals of God's retribution of Israelite was one of the reasons that the Christian Crusaders despised Jews during Crusades & during Inquisition Era, prejudiced church officials persecuted Jewish traders.

Robotech

You failed to define a prophet to begin with. You muslims don抰 even know what is a prophet.
Are there Roman or Greek prophets? Perhaps. But not all prophets are recorded in the Bible.

A prophet or a Nabi was sent by God to convey God's message to a specific nation or people. However, prophet Muhammad pbuh is to convey God' mesage to humankind.

Sure, there would be prophets of even Roman or Greek, who knows. In the Quran only told us of 25 prophets sent by God to each nation of humankind but certainly according to Islam tradition, the Anbiyaa (pluarl form for Nabi) sent by God are not only 25, but numbered well into 125,000 ... upon which 313 are considered of Rasul (Messenger) status, of whom only 25 are known, with prophet Muhammad is the last one of them all, earning him as 'Seal of the Prophets'.

Robotech

What rubbish! You have not read the Bible at all. Don抰 be lazy and don抰 be a liar my fren - (of biblical punihment ended after Moses & Aaron era

Now ... looked back into the bible, & pointed to me of Biblical punishments that God meted out after Aaron & Moses era.

Mo was a religious bigot and had no tolerance.
Arabia used to be a multi racial and multi religious society. Mo came along and destroyed anyone who don抰 choose to believe in his religion.

Muhammad PBUH carried a religion that currently the FASTEST GROWING IN THE WORLD. A religion, that proved atleat once a year during Idul Adha (Hajj) that every humanity, irregardless of status & ethnicities, swarmed to Mecca with nothing more than a white simple robe, all bowing to ONE unifying God, in one language, in one spirit. Europeans, Africans, South Asians, South East Asians, East Asians, Americans, Russians, Arabs & Turks, even smattering of Muslim Jews & basically every nationality in the world descended to Mecca, with one faith ... ISLAM!

Robotech

Yes, I remember them, we Christians kicked them. (Of Neo-Nazi & Ku Klux Klan)
Where are the Jews in Muslim countries today? What did you Muslims do to them?

Well, those Christian fascists didn't even exist in Muslim countries.

Muslim Jews are considered part of Muslim Ummah. In Iran, Jewish people have their representative in the Government.

In Malaysia, Jews of European & American nationality stay here as expats. They even come as tourists. We didn't even persecute them. As for Israelite Jew, well, we don't have diplomatic relationship with them.

Who the heck cares.